Why is the HS 748 known as the Budgie?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I think I was probably about 6 years old when I first heard a Dart; dad took me to Ringway back in the days of the original 1938 terminal, and a taxying Viscount must have made quite an impression.

When I got home I can remember running round the back lawn with my arms outstretched, 'police' whistle in my mouth making 'Dart-like' sounds!

[om15]

Thanks for that, great link, I enjoyed listening to that with the sound up, glad that there are Darts still going, it must be nearly 70 years since the first one flew.

[pigboat]

om15 thanks, that's the mod I was thinking of. I seem to remember a 748 that had it incorporated.

I'm pretty sure CF-CSE was the first 748 in Canada, imported by an oil company ..Shell?.. It had an APU in the tail compartment. Air North also operates CF-AGI, the first commercial 748 in Canada, originally owned by Air Gaspe Inc. hence the registration. This would have been about 1972 or 1973.

[NRU74]

Could you select reverse pitch in flight ? - for short landing, obviously. I recall that you could in the RAF's C1 version (the one with the bending undercarriage) but could you do it in the HS 748 ?

[om15]

No reverse pitch on the civil Dart powered aircraft, the ground fine pitch was zero degrees on the ground, in the air the flight fine pitch stop held the prop at about 16 degrees.


In theory it was possible to remove the flight fine pitch stop in flight, but only by engaging the gust lock or selecting the flight fine lock lever, depending on aircraft type, on the F27 it was selected by lifting the throttles up and back over a detent.

[Herod]

IIRC there was a Dan-Air 748 at LBA which abandoned the takeoff very early in the roll, and just selected idle power. The flight fine locks had engaged, with the result that both engines got a "little warm"

[pigboat]

The F and J model Fairchild F-27's and the FH-227's - RDa 529's and 532's respectively - had a two stop propeller. In addition to the flight fine pitch lock there was a cruise pitch lock that engaged automatically in cruise when the propeller went past 30 or 32 degrees - I forget which and am too lazy to go look up. The lock would remove itself automatically as the aircraft slowed from cruise, but it case it didn't the lock could be removed manually by selecting the HP cock to the full forward Lock Out position. This worked well but if for whatever reason a prop somehow became jammed on the cruise pitch stop it would hang there. A way around that was to punch a feathering button momentarily to drive the prop forward off the lock. I could never figure out why the F-27's had that, another nickname for them being The Flying Blimp, but apparently the two stop prop came about at the request of corporate operators who were leery of a prop fining off toward flight fine at cruise speed. The G159 had them, so it seems to have been a me-too addition by Fairchild. The G1 I can see, it was after all a 290kt airplane.

[om15]

If I remember, Fokkers produced an AFM amendment to operate with the HP cocks at lock out at all times, they felt that there was no need for the cruise stop. However the CAA had the view that the aircraft had not been certified to operate with the cruise lock disengaged, and UK operators continued to use the system as designed.
I think it was 32 degrees, with the hub switches operating at 34 degrees, I have it noted somewhere.


Herod, I was involved on two separate occasions to carry out double engine changes on Heralds in cases where the flight fine lever went forward on taxi, the aircraft stopped on the runway with the props hanging on the locks, when opened up for take off both engines burnt out, in one case severely damaging the jet pipe.

[midnight retired]

om15 #78 HS748

The HS 748 S2 that became a HS 748 S1 which you referred to might have become G-DAAL which in my logbook is down as a Series 1A.

[ZeBedie]

Sorry for the thread drift, but this is worth watching

[Midland 331]

Yikes. Quite scary to see one thrown around like that. I suspect that the PF had decent upper body strength..

[om15]

Midnight retired, yes that does ring a bell, was G-DAAL an ex Dan Air aircraft do you remember?

[Airbanda]

According to g-info DAAL was c/n1557 previously BEKG, and also spent time a VAJK.

Built as series 105 for Aerolineas and sold to Dan Air c1977. Was it possible for Dan Air to convert it to Series 2 spec?

[Jn14:6]

Dan-Air bought a 'job lot' of Darts from the MoD from recently retired Argosies. These were fitted to the Dan-Air sirs 2s to become 2As. The engines from the srs 2s were then fitted to the srs 1s, and the aircraft given the unofficial designation srs 1A.
(If my ageing memory serves me well!)

jn14:6, ex- DA 748s & Comets

[philbky]

Jn 14:6 that sounds right. Kept DA Manchester busy.

[Cantiflas]

80p

I left Woodford before the ATP emerged.
Yes,it was termed the Skoda in some circles but in others (line engineering) it was the Yugo!
BEA crews referred to the 737 as a fluf,I think,before they became part of the fleet.

[JW411]

I flew the Argosy for 10 years in the RAF. We had a mechanical lever near the throttles which had to be selected by the PNF during the landing run. This allowed the props to fine off from the FFPS (Flight Fine Pitch Stop) which was around 12 degrees or so blade angle to the GFPS (Ground Fine Pitch Stop) which was around 0 degrees.

If you opened the throttles on the ground with the props still in Flight Fine, an instant melt down happened pretty quickly (too much fuel for too high a blade angle).

During my time there were at least two total meltdowns on the Argosy fleet. I think one event took place on the conversion unit at Thorney Island (242 OCU) and certainly, the other event happened at Luqa when ATC asked the crew to expedite clearing the runway after landing. On both occasions, all four engines were wrecked.

During my time on the Argosy, I was attached to BEA to fly the Viscount 802/806. Pretty much the same engines and props but their ground fine pitch stop was controlled by a squat switch on the nose gear (brought on an orange light if I remember to show that it was working correctly). I don't recall BEA having any meltdowns but I am prepared to be educated!

[midnight retired]

HS 748 s1A

om15 G-DAAL.

Your excellent article has certainly created some deep thinking on the part of quite a few of us and also added to the knowledge on the venerable Avro 748 aircraft, so well done for blowing the cobwebs away.

I first flew G-DAAL in 1995 when I joined Emerald Airways at Liverpool , I would need to find my old logbooks , somewhere in the loft , to perhaps add something of value to the discussion . I recall it was eventually withdrawn from service as more Series 2A's and 2B's were added to the fleet.

Despite the decision to standardise the Series 1's carried on for many a year, the final flight of a UK based Series 1 was G-BEJD which I took to Blackpool for disposal , last heard of it returned to Liverpool by road !

[om15]

G-BEJD is familiar, one of the original batch of 748s in the fleet, I have found this in my notes, a cutting from the Royal Aeronautical Society magazine in January 1993, John Case was an ex BA 748 engineer who was instrumental in introducing the type to what was then called Janes, when he passed away G-BEJD had his name on the side of the cockpit.
There were very interesting and innovating times, keeping elderly airframes going on a budget, I wish I had kept more notes of the various aircraft,

[midnight retired]

G-BEJD AVRO 748 S1

Thank you for the information on the naming of John Case on JD , another interesting fragment of the 748 jigsaw.