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BOAC B707 ops in the 1960s

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BOAC B707 ops in the 1960s

Old 11th Nov 2015, 01:47
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I'm absolutely loving this thread and have just wasted (not really!) over an hour absorbing it. Looking forward to the book.

There were a bunch of intrepid aviators still doing some of this stuff in 4 engine jets up to the early 90s - the RAF's Victor crews. We frequently crossed the Atlantic with the minimum required 2 long range Nav systems - the Omega and the Navigator. Someone convinced the authorities that he qualified as one - although the accuracy varied considerably depending on several factors, included numbers of beers consumed the night before.

The reason Tankers still used Omega was that if two aircraft wanted to get together a long way from radar or short range land based systems, Omega would give both aircraft the same error and they would meet up. Some Victors were fitted with a single Carousel in the Falklands war, but there was only room for one system, so Omega stayed.

The other Nav kit consisted of one ADF, one TACAN, the Doppler fed Ground Position Indicator and the original Nav Bombing System fed from the WW2 era H2s Radar. One day crossing the pond, Omega dropped out to to a solar storm, we were out of range of the NDBs, we couldn't pick up Consol, the sea was silky smooth - so no Doppler and out of range of radar fix points - so our intrepid Vasco broke out the sextant. We coated in 32 miles off track, which I thought was quite good, but Shanwick didn't agree and violated us. No one was daft enough to let us into MNPS airspace, so luckily we were a FL450 where no one else was.
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Old 11th Nov 2015, 03:01
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We coated in 32 miles off track
Using a sextant to nav on the jets, what was considered the acceptable error in position fixing?
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Old 11th Nov 2015, 05:58
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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megan - 20Nms was quite good
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Old 11th Nov 2015, 11:20
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Many thanks Bergerie1, what might it have been back in the piston days? I'm thinking of the PAA floatplanes looking for the islands in the Pacific during the 1930s.
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Old 11th Nov 2015, 13:36
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megan,
I was thinking a bit more. It would be reasonable, if you got good shots in good conditions, to expect 10Nms as a good ballpark figure. And even in a little turbulence 20Nms should always be possible with a bubble periscopic sextant from a jet transport. My last nav sector using stars was in May 1975.

Perhaps, there are others who can add to this. But I know next to nothing about pre-war astro navigation.
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Old 11th Nov 2015, 19:42
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Were you using Loran as well as the sextant? If so I would think 10NM would be pretty easy if you had good Loran reception?
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Old 12th Nov 2015, 07:35
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Spooky,
Sometimes one did, sometimes one didn't - it all depended on what was available. The accuracy figures I have mentioned are for celestial fixes using stars, planets, moon and sun alone - not mixed with other position lines from Loran or any other aid.
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Old 12th Nov 2015, 09:05
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Yes that's what I suspected you meant but wasn't sure. Most of my cel nav was done over the Pacific and the Loran coverage was pretty good...most of the time.
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Old 12th Nov 2015, 10:26
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DW

The other Nav kit consisted of one ADF, one TACAN, the Doppler fed Ground Position Indicator and the original Nav Bombing System fed from the WW2 era H2s Radar.
The H2S that was included in the NBS the V-Bombers was H2S Mk9, it 1st saw light of day in the mid 50's.

I helped the guys from EMI install the 1st RAF NBS set up, it was included in the 'Trainer' that was installed at BCBS Lindholme in 1954-5.

It was very different from the H2S Mk 4A that we had fitted to the Lincolns at the time.
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Old 23rd Nov 2015, 22:14
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Originally Posted by Discorde
I might have to divert my 707 into Sondestromfjord. Latterly the approach into BGSF was LOC/DME. Was that the case in the late 1960s? Was there SRA or PAR available? Did crews use weather radar to assist with nav (terrain) orientation?
I'm probably one of the few here who actually went into Sondrestrom (as it was called) in this era, on a Wardair 727 charter routing Prestwick-Sondrestrom-Vancouver in 1968, just as a teenager. Weather was good both ways but it was apparently quite a challenge when not. It was a surprising fuel stop because the cost of getting aviation fuel there must have been considerable. There was a coffee shop and duty free counter in there which took any currency you chose (principally Canadian dollars it seemed). I guess their diversion point was Frobisher (nowadays Iqaluit). The crew worked right through from Prestwick to Vancouver, I don't think there was any crew hotac at Sondrestrom.
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Old 13th Dec 2015, 13:15
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My Dad is an ex BOAC 707 pilot who retired in 1973. He was a Lanc pilot with a DFC before being seconded by the RAF to BOAC at the end of the war initially flying from Hurn.

His favourite trips were Alaska to Tokyo and then to Moscow. Between Moscow and Tokyo he remembers having coms with Russians working in isolated places in Siberia who rarely spoke with anyone and were chuffed to have a chat.

In Moscow he was often aware of being followed and several times had people asking to buy his tie. There was also the true story of a flight engineer on the very first BOAC flight to Moscow who was convinced his hotel bedroom was bugged. He felt something lumpy under the carpet, rolled it back and found a metal object screwed to the floor. He unscrewed it and heard a massive crash as the chandelier in the room below fell to the floor.
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Old 13th Dec 2015, 14:45
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In Moscow he was often aware of being followed and several times had people asking to buy his tie. There was also the true story of a flight engineer on the very first BOAC flight to Moscow who was convinced his hotel bedroom was bugged. He felt something lumpy under the carpet, rolled it back and found a metal object screwed to the floor. He unscrewed it and heard a massive crash as the chandelier in the room below fell to the floor.
Full story here: (Though it has been attributed to a Canadian basketball team):
http://betteronacamel.com/Russia-USS...rd-Garvie-1970
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Old 13th Dec 2015, 16:44
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The way I heard the chandelier story was that it was the F/E on the 216 Sqn VIP Comet 4 crew that took Harold Wilson to Moscow for a briefing.
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Old 13th Dec 2015, 17:08
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Dad is sticking by his version of the chandelier story!

Reading accounts of waking up air crew on flights ... Dad's memory is more of having to wake up air traffic controllers at various African airports on flights back north to Europe!

He also remembers in Kano, when a flight was due to land, there was a man on the ground whose job was to stand on the runway blowing a horn to frighten off the local wildlife!
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Old 13th Dec 2015, 19:10
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Originally Posted by Sandisondaughter
Dad is sticking by his version of the chandelier story!
Was he subsequently a scriptwriter for Fools & Horses ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFuYIi5-igc
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 07:28
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Originally Posted by barry lloyd
Full story here: (Though it has been attributed to a Canadian basketball team):
http://betteronacamel.com/Russia-USS...rd-Garvie-1970
The above link doesn't work for me. Let's try this one: BETTER ON A CAMEL

Success ... and there's the trumpet blower on the camel at Kano, and ooh, an Argonaut getting airborne on a 'Curvature of the Earth' job! Now scroll down to Europe and 'Russia (USSR) Trans-Siberian Start-Up by Brian Burgess.' Brian has the facts correct, the only thing I would disagree with is that BEA had the Land Rover and the BOAC Representative USSR - the late Roger Moulding - had supplied to him a 1600E Ford Cortina automatic/white. (Moscow, winter, snow/slush, fines for having a dirty motor car i.e. not a very bright choice, eh?) Roger had a degree in modern languages, including Russian, and had spent his National Service in the RAF in Berlin, listening to radio traffic. Dead ringer for a 'spook' you might be thinking - as I did - but I'm assured that he wasn't.

I was the 'meticulous flight planner' posted with suitable winter clothing, and arrived aboard BA860 G-AWHU on 24th September 1970 for what proved to be a most interesting three months!

Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 14th Dec 2015 at 07:55. Reason: Testing the link
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 09:23
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The Moscow chandelier is a legendary BOAC story told and re told for many years.

The hotel was The Ukraine which was a Stalinist monstrosity the rooms were tiny and the facilities in the bathroom consisted of a small piece of cloth that served as a towel, a sliver of carbolic soap and the lack of a plug in the sink! Standard instructions were to take towel, soap and plug with you on these trips.

The 'restaurant' was a joke. A vast menu would be produced and as you asked for each item the huge waitress, wearing socks and with a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp, would say 'Niet'. You would,at some random point in the proceedings, find a tin dish containing some fat and gristle and maybe a little yellow, overcooked cabbage thrown down in front of you. Accompanying this delight would be a piece of black concrete which was supposed to be bread and a glass of black tea.

This was the reason that self catering was the norm on Moscow trips and the large fruit cake liberated from the First Class galley was eked out until pick up and the return to civilisation arrived.

The one good point about the hotel was the Beriozka shop which was filled with goodies which could be purchased with hard currency. Bottles of grog and cases of beer were very cheap if paid for in £'s or $'s so the parties were always well oiled.

Each floor of the hotel had a desk in front of the ancient manual lifts this was the home of the 'Dragon Lady' who would write something in a large book each time you arrived or left the room. There was much speculation as to what sensitive information was being gathered for the KGB by these jolly souls.

We once held a party in one of the lifts which were like something out of an Agatha Christie film with a young lady who operated the thing. We toasted every guest that arrived in the lift with drink from the Beriozka and attempted to woo the lift operator. All jolly good fun until a man with an air of menace entered the lift addressed us by name and told us it was time to go to bed! Arguing was not an option so off to the freezing cell it was.

The Captain was given a huge cavernous 'suite' which even had a grand piano the floors had moth eaten rugs and this is were the origins of the Chandelier took root. The room party was usually in this room as you could only fit two people in the standard ones.

As 'strong drink' was taken and theories of KGB spies were told someone lifted the rug and saw a small area that could be lifted in the floor. The Flight Engineer was dispatched to get his tool kit and the floor board lifted revealing an object that they decided was a 'bug'. A spanner was produced and the rest is history
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 09:43
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vctenderness – spot on!

After I retired from BA I worked for IATA in Brussels in the late 1990s, and was part of a team trying to negotiate better routes across Siberia between Europe and Japan. The airlines wanted more northerly routes that were close to the Great Circle rather than the southerly routes that passed near Moscow. They also wanted a network of useable routes so that advantage could be taken day by day of the variability of the jet stream. Try asking for flexibility from ex-Soviet functionaries! They were nice enough as individuals but their mind-set was anything but flexible.

After one long day of negotiations we were wined and dined in a large opulent dining room. It had ornate cornices around the ceilings and magnificent chandeliers. Towards the end of the dinner, after rather too many vodka toasts, I was asked if I knew where we were. I said I didn’t. Our hosts then told me it was Stalin’s dining room by the racecourse. I responded by admiring the decorations and the chandeliers, and then asked if they would like me to tell them a story.

So, with suitable embroidery, I told the story of the BOAC crew and the chandelier. It all had to be done through interpreters, one of whom I was told had been an interpreter for Khrushchev. The upshot was they all loved it and laughed until tears rolled down their cheeks. And whenever I returned to Moscow (which was frequent) I was asked to tell the story again. It did much to break the ice.
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 14:36
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The hotel was The Ukraine which was a Stalinist monstrosity the rooms were tiny and the facilities in the bathroom consisted of a small piece of cloth that served as a towel, a sliver of carbolic soap and the lack of a plug in the sink! Standard instructions were to take towel, soap and plug with you on these trips.
Are you sure it was the Ukraine? The description is spot-on, although I don't recall there being any chandeliers in the lobby there. (In fact I don't remember it being very well lit at all , but then nowhere was in those days!). The Metropole (near the Bolshoi on Revolution Square) has a magnificent chandelier in the lobby and my understanding is that is was this which suffered the fall. I spoke to the then manager in the early 90s and he confirmed that there was a suite above the ceiling where the chandelier was mounted, which of course was de rigueur for BOAC captains in those days.

I seem to remember that the plug sizes were always a problem, because ours were imperial and theirs were metric. I eventually discovered that you could buy a universal bathplug in the UK, basically a solid rubber ball slightly bigger than a golf ball, which covered all eventualities (and plugholes!).
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 19:35
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Barry. The chandelier didn't crash down in the lobby. It was the suite below. The Captains suite had a chandelier as well as the Grand piano so this was repeated down each floor.

My memory is pretty good but the hotel could have been the Ukrainen rather than just Ukraine.
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