hadley page herald and f27
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Along with the book there is a very good DVD as well that has the arrival and departure from ACI in 4 engine version and shots from various south American tours and a start up at STN at the end of there careers.
Ah the whistle of two Darts.......
Ah the whistle of two Darts.......
To get the best out of your Herald in the climb contact Capt Geoff Hyam.
To get the best out of your Herald in a howling Channel Island cross-wind and chuck some fog in at the same too, contact Capt Spenny Spencer.
I realise my advice is about thirty-five years too late but there we are!
Ex BIA Mocon.
To get the best out of your Herald in a howling Channel Island cross-wind and chuck some fog in at the same too, contact Capt Spenny Spencer.
I realise my advice is about thirty-five years too late but there we are!
Ex BIA Mocon.
Last edited by OUAQUKGF Ops; 6th Nov 2012 at 19:07.
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Gentlemen ! What a very interesting and educational thread this is, thank you all !
I can add nothing but one photo ..... should you wish to see one of each side by side, still looking reasonably well cared for, then a visit to City of Norwich Aviation Museum !
Interestingly the Dart Herald G-ASKK is the very one that was shown at Farnboroug in 1962 as CF-MCK in Maritime Central colour scheme, if I recall correctly this registration was never taken up .... for whatever reason ??
Keith
I can add nothing but one photo ..... should you wish to see one of each side by side, still looking reasonably well cared for, then a visit to City of Norwich Aviation Museum !
Interestingly the Dart Herald G-ASKK is the very one that was shown at Farnboroug in 1962 as CF-MCK in Maritime Central colour scheme, if I recall correctly this registration was never taken up .... for whatever reason ??
Keith
Norwich the assets of Maritime Central were acquired around that time by Eastern Provincial Airways. EPA bought two of their own machines, CF-EPI and CF-EPC. They also took CF-NAF and CF-NAC that had been slated for Nordair. NAF was lost to an explosive decompression and inflight breakup while climbing out from Halifax on March 17, 1965. The breakup was caused by corrosion underneath the forward lav.
I was surprised to read that you filed 200 kt with the Herald. I thought it would have been a little faster. We operated a Fairchild F model F-27, and filed 240 in the winter and 230 in the summer.
I was surprised to read that you filed 200 kt with the Herald. I thought it would have been a little faster. We operated a Fairchild F model F-27, and filed 240 in the winter and 230 in the summer.
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Ah, the HP7 and the F27! That picture posted by Norwich - I've flown 'em both!
I joined BIA in March 78 and did 2 years on the Herald, getting my first Command on it – and then 9 years on the F27 when we became Air UK, ending up as Training Manager then Fleet Manager, so I have a good insight into the differences.
The Herald was a superb aircraft for a first Command – easy to fly (except, like all turboprops of that generation, on one engine) leaving you to absorb the nuances of being a Captain for the first time. As mentioned, the crosswind handling was a joy compared to the F27 and the flight-deck layout was much better too. There were a few ‘gotchas’ though – for example, the nosewheel steering handle was on the top of the control column and, being hinged at the bottom, was stowable. Folding it away in flight was a bad move - an open invitation to score an own-goal by forgetting to raise it for landing. There followed an agitated, hasty, cursing fumble to vacate the runway … one only did that the once.
As F/O, you always knew if you were going to get a sector (no automatic ‘leg & leg about’ in those times – sectors were ‘granted’ by sir) because there was a steering switch in the centre of the instrument panel to select which nosewheel steering handle was active. If you were going to have a sector bestowed upon you, the Captain would flick it across to the right – usually with an ostentatious flourish, at which point it was ‘de rigueur’ to genuflect in gratitude. The HP7 also had one of the first flight directors – the Sperry Zero Reader – which didn’t cope with any drift – hah! Ours were also originally fitted with half-needle RBIs for the ADF. My NDB approaches using this equipment were almost transcendentally awful, drawing crowds of bemused onlookers.
De-icing was interesting too. The wings had a heat-exchange system using hot (but not bleed) air which exited out of ports on the wingtips thereby generating your very own clear-air turbulence – but that wing, perched high as it was, was not de-iced on the centre-section over the the fuselage and could accrue alarming amounts of ice.
In all other respects, the F27 was a superior aircraft. Commercially, for a similar passenger load, the Herald’s APS weight was about a ton heavier. This meant that you could carry about a thimbleful of fuel with a decent load on the Herald, whereas you were tanking on the F27. We used to fly the F27 direct to Milan (Bergamo) in the mid-80s, which would not have been possible on the Herald – one, because you couldn’t have got the fuel on and two, the F27 would go to FL230. FL170 was the HP7’s top floor; after the Canadian Flight Deck detached, they drastically reduced the max diff. Someone correctly mentioned that the F27 was 30-40Kts faster too.
The F27’s handling in a crosswind could be challenging to say the least. I was teaching a lady to fly the aircraft at Norwich in the mid-80s, and most of her training was conducted in fairly gusty conditions. At the time I was playing golf (poorly) and had complained about developing a nasty slice. When she had completed the course and had left NWI for her base I found a box of golf balls in my pigeon hole with a note from her saying “I hope you keep these straighter than I kept the F27!”
Strangely, planning the descent in the F27 was an art. Whereas in a jet one works on three times the height plus the appropriate increment to slow down, one uses FOUR times the height in an F27. This was because the Dart engine should not be idled in flight – one has to maintain 40 psi torque (some airlines mandated 100 psi) to avoid reduction-gear ‘chattering.’ Even my current mount - the slippery B757 with winglets - is easier to ‘go down and slow down.’
I had a terrific decade on the F27, visiting in the process some challenging airfields which were as mixed as Heathrow at one end of the spectrum and Duxford at the other, and until we got access to a full-flight simulator in 1987, training new guys and girls on the raw aircraft could present some ‘moments’ (my PpRune name is my old Air UK training callsign.) As we had only a couple of aircraft with autopilots and none with flight directors I don’t think my instrument flying skills will ever again match that period.
Happy days – and thanks to Herod who drew my attention to the thread.
JB
I joined BIA in March 78 and did 2 years on the Herald, getting my first Command on it – and then 9 years on the F27 when we became Air UK, ending up as Training Manager then Fleet Manager, so I have a good insight into the differences.
The Herald was a superb aircraft for a first Command – easy to fly (except, like all turboprops of that generation, on one engine) leaving you to absorb the nuances of being a Captain for the first time. As mentioned, the crosswind handling was a joy compared to the F27 and the flight-deck layout was much better too. There were a few ‘gotchas’ though – for example, the nosewheel steering handle was on the top of the control column and, being hinged at the bottom, was stowable. Folding it away in flight was a bad move - an open invitation to score an own-goal by forgetting to raise it for landing. There followed an agitated, hasty, cursing fumble to vacate the runway … one only did that the once.
As F/O, you always knew if you were going to get a sector (no automatic ‘leg & leg about’ in those times – sectors were ‘granted’ by sir) because there was a steering switch in the centre of the instrument panel to select which nosewheel steering handle was active. If you were going to have a sector bestowed upon you, the Captain would flick it across to the right – usually with an ostentatious flourish, at which point it was ‘de rigueur’ to genuflect in gratitude. The HP7 also had one of the first flight directors – the Sperry Zero Reader – which didn’t cope with any drift – hah! Ours were also originally fitted with half-needle RBIs for the ADF. My NDB approaches using this equipment were almost transcendentally awful, drawing crowds of bemused onlookers.
De-icing was interesting too. The wings had a heat-exchange system using hot (but not bleed) air which exited out of ports on the wingtips thereby generating your very own clear-air turbulence – but that wing, perched high as it was, was not de-iced on the centre-section over the the fuselage and could accrue alarming amounts of ice.
In all other respects, the F27 was a superior aircraft. Commercially, for a similar passenger load, the Herald’s APS weight was about a ton heavier. This meant that you could carry about a thimbleful of fuel with a decent load on the Herald, whereas you were tanking on the F27. We used to fly the F27 direct to Milan (Bergamo) in the mid-80s, which would not have been possible on the Herald – one, because you couldn’t have got the fuel on and two, the F27 would go to FL230. FL170 was the HP7’s top floor; after the Canadian Flight Deck detached, they drastically reduced the max diff. Someone correctly mentioned that the F27 was 30-40Kts faster too.
The F27’s handling in a crosswind could be challenging to say the least. I was teaching a lady to fly the aircraft at Norwich in the mid-80s, and most of her training was conducted in fairly gusty conditions. At the time I was playing golf (poorly) and had complained about developing a nasty slice. When she had completed the course and had left NWI for her base I found a box of golf balls in my pigeon hole with a note from her saying “I hope you keep these straighter than I kept the F27!”
Strangely, planning the descent in the F27 was an art. Whereas in a jet one works on three times the height plus the appropriate increment to slow down, one uses FOUR times the height in an F27. This was because the Dart engine should not be idled in flight – one has to maintain 40 psi torque (some airlines mandated 100 psi) to avoid reduction-gear ‘chattering.’ Even my current mount - the slippery B757 with winglets - is easier to ‘go down and slow down.’
I had a terrific decade on the F27, visiting in the process some challenging airfields which were as mixed as Heathrow at one end of the spectrum and Duxford at the other, and until we got access to a full-flight simulator in 1987, training new guys and girls on the raw aircraft could present some ‘moments’ (my PpRune name is my old Air UK training callsign.) As we had only a couple of aircraft with autopilots and none with flight directors I don’t think my instrument flying skills will ever again match that period.
Happy days – and thanks to Herod who drew my attention to the thread.
JB
Last edited by UK019; 9th Nov 2012 at 19:30.
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G-AODE had visited Croydon before its fire .... lower down on:_Croydon Airport & RAF Croydon Airfield
possibly the only turboprop seen there?
possibly the only turboprop seen there?
Last edited by A30yoyo; 9th Nov 2012 at 19:54.
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Great summary JB, only a top trainer would pen!
Am I correct the 'reduction gear chattering' was also known as 'lay shaft chatter'?
Oh that min 40 psi torque!!
Having to 'milk' the HP cock lever to prevent overtemp on engine start.
And what about the moving of the HP cock levers in the cruise to/from lock out. Great care and monitoring needed there.
Another issue was the RR Dart gearbox on the FK27 if over filled with oil, it had a habit of venting the oil out. Red oil pressure light requiring a rapid shutdown to protect the gearbox from damage.
Interesting landing uphill runway 28 into a very strong wind at LBA, had to be quick from selecting ground fine to get the control locks in, avoid touching the brakes before applying power to prevent rolling backwards.
Pneumatic system, minimum 1500/1500/2500 psi before take off. System leaked pressure in cold overnight conditions. Either system had to be bottle charged or wait ages with the engines running to charge to min's.
Also a throttle lever linkage broke on one of the Friendships to one of our colleagues.
The worst incident was a rudder bracket break which was well handled by one of our former colleagues who diverted into Creil. I'll leave it to my friend and former colleague to comment if he wishes to.
Although the friendship was undoubtedly a slicker machine than the Herald, it certainly had its faults.
Am I correct the 'reduction gear chattering' was also known as 'lay shaft chatter'?
Oh that min 40 psi torque!!
Having to 'milk' the HP cock lever to prevent overtemp on engine start.
And what about the moving of the HP cock levers in the cruise to/from lock out. Great care and monitoring needed there.
Another issue was the RR Dart gearbox on the FK27 if over filled with oil, it had a habit of venting the oil out. Red oil pressure light requiring a rapid shutdown to protect the gearbox from damage.
Interesting landing uphill runway 28 into a very strong wind at LBA, had to be quick from selecting ground fine to get the control locks in, avoid touching the brakes before applying power to prevent rolling backwards.
Pneumatic system, minimum 1500/1500/2500 psi before take off. System leaked pressure in cold overnight conditions. Either system had to be bottle charged or wait ages with the engines running to charge to min's.
Also a throttle lever linkage broke on one of the Friendships to one of our colleagues.
The worst incident was a rudder bracket break which was well handled by one of our former colleagues who diverted into Creil. I'll leave it to my friend and former colleague to comment if he wishes to.
Although the friendship was undoubtedly a slicker machine than the Herald, it certainly had its faults.
Last edited by p1fel; 14th Nov 2012 at 16:44. Reason: spelling
I've read elsewhere that the F27 was very sensitive in pitch when in the cruise, so much so that the movement of the drinks trolley was distinctly noticeable.
So, with no AP, was it hard, tiring work to hand-fly on longer sectors? ABZ-AMS must have been over two hours, and the brief NCL-CPH, circa 1985-6, was around 2hr 35 eastbound and longer westbound. The yokes reminded me of the steering wheel of a mid-fifties tractor.
The noises heard on some of the older Air UK machines used to make me smile. On some, the cabin bell was exactly that, a bell, or so it sounded. And the air systems sounded quaint. Put these two together, and you could be on a tramcar.
Like all Darts, brown liquid streaming back over the nacelles was another quirky feature.
So, with no AP, was it hard, tiring work to hand-fly on longer sectors? ABZ-AMS must have been over two hours, and the brief NCL-CPH, circa 1985-6, was around 2hr 35 eastbound and longer westbound. The yokes reminded me of the steering wheel of a mid-fifties tractor.
The noises heard on some of the older Air UK machines used to make me smile. On some, the cabin bell was exactly that, a bell, or so it sounded. And the air systems sounded quaint. Put these two together, and you could be on a tramcar.
Like all Darts, brown liquid streaming back over the nacelles was another quirky feature.
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A few more memories of Air UK F27s to add to the above:
- first few days as a new command on the F27 and losing all of the contents of the main pneumatic bottle somewhere over the North Sea whilst inbound to Amsterdam. Once the gear had been lowered it would mean, in theory, that we couldn't raise it again. As Amsterdam was 200' overcast we decided to divert to a slightly more favourable Humberside. Interestingly, the main pneumatic bottle started to charge again once we had lowered the gear as the original leak was in the UP line of the undercarriage.
- as mentioned earlier, the gearbox warning light was a manual shutdown if illuminated. This was necessary to protect the accessory gearbox on the F27 as the was no fire protection there. First experience of this was, again, during my first few weeks of command. Light illuminated on final approach to Newcastle - we decided to delay the shutdown until after we had landed.
- the F27 was noticeably faster than the 748, as well. Followed a BA 'Budgie' out of Edinburgh one evening and overhauled him within the first twenty minutes. I believe that, as with the Herald, we had about 30-40 kts speed advantage over him.
- with hindsight, I believe all initial crosswind training for an F27 should have been performed on an Auster or Super Cub or similar - anything more than about 8 knots across I would give it full into wind aileron and full opposite rudder. This seemed to keep it tracking,beautifully, down the centreline on landing.
- my first inflight shutdown of a Dart engine occurred a few weeks before I completed my last flight on the F27. A control rod that was the direct linkage to the FCU on the left side of the starboard Dart engine had snapped at the eye-end. This meant that the engine was operating at minimum power with no throttle control. Manual shutdown as per QRH. Years later, I still don't think I have recovered from the unscheduled Southampton nightstop.
- being invited to take part in the Dutch Friendship Association's 40th Anniversary of the first flight of the F27. You don't get many opportunities to fly around the Netherlands, for two hours, in formation with five other F27s. Abiding memory was, shortly after getting airborne from Schiphol, in a left turn, glancing over my left shoulder and seeing the Dutch Air Force F27 tucked up under my port wing - stunning!
- carrying a CAA Flight Ops Inspector with us on the jumpseat for a couple of sectors. He didn't say much but, before he left us and disembarked in Southampton, he stated that he "wished all new airline pilots could get the chance to fly an aircraft such as this before moving on to bigger things."
Happy memories.
- first few days as a new command on the F27 and losing all of the contents of the main pneumatic bottle somewhere over the North Sea whilst inbound to Amsterdam. Once the gear had been lowered it would mean, in theory, that we couldn't raise it again. As Amsterdam was 200' overcast we decided to divert to a slightly more favourable Humberside. Interestingly, the main pneumatic bottle started to charge again once we had lowered the gear as the original leak was in the UP line of the undercarriage.
- as mentioned earlier, the gearbox warning light was a manual shutdown if illuminated. This was necessary to protect the accessory gearbox on the F27 as the was no fire protection there. First experience of this was, again, during my first few weeks of command. Light illuminated on final approach to Newcastle - we decided to delay the shutdown until after we had landed.
- the F27 was noticeably faster than the 748, as well. Followed a BA 'Budgie' out of Edinburgh one evening and overhauled him within the first twenty minutes. I believe that, as with the Herald, we had about 30-40 kts speed advantage over him.
- with hindsight, I believe all initial crosswind training for an F27 should have been performed on an Auster or Super Cub or similar - anything more than about 8 knots across I would give it full into wind aileron and full opposite rudder. This seemed to keep it tracking,beautifully, down the centreline on landing.
- my first inflight shutdown of a Dart engine occurred a few weeks before I completed my last flight on the F27. A control rod that was the direct linkage to the FCU on the left side of the starboard Dart engine had snapped at the eye-end. This meant that the engine was operating at minimum power with no throttle control. Manual shutdown as per QRH. Years later, I still don't think I have recovered from the unscheduled Southampton nightstop.
- being invited to take part in the Dutch Friendship Association's 40th Anniversary of the first flight of the F27. You don't get many opportunities to fly around the Netherlands, for two hours, in formation with five other F27s. Abiding memory was, shortly after getting airborne from Schiphol, in a left turn, glancing over my left shoulder and seeing the Dutch Air Force F27 tucked up under my port wing - stunning!
- carrying a CAA Flight Ops Inspector with us on the jumpseat for a couple of sectors. He didn't say much but, before he left us and disembarked in Southampton, he stated that he "wished all new airline pilots could get the chance to fly an aircraft such as this before moving on to bigger things."
Happy memories.
Last edited by Turnberry; 10th Nov 2012 at 12:26.
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Agreed, T7a.
I was more than ready to transfer to the F100 and enjoyed my short time on it.
Then the VNV came along and it was time for 'pastures new' (along with a large number of other Air UK pilots).
I was more than ready to transfer to the F100 and enjoyed my short time on it.
Then the VNV came along and it was time for 'pastures new' (along with a large number of other Air UK pilots).
Last edited by Turnberry; 10th Nov 2012 at 13:14.
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Milking the HP cock seemed to only be an alternative to using the fuel trimmers.
Last edited by JammedStab; 10th Nov 2012 at 13:47.
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Do you really like the sound of two Darts?
Ref the comment on the pneumatic leak, as a colleague once said "the advantage of pneumatics over hydraulics is, in the event of a leak, the sky is full of pneums" More than once departed with the pressure showing normal (ish), only to have the nosewheel light stay at red. keep the speed down below gear-limiting and after a few minutes there would be a "thunk" and the gear would be locked up.
I have to say I liked the F27. Built of girders and would see you safely through anything.
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The 748 had the same 40 psi minimum for layshaft chatter, but I never did understand fully what layshaft chatter meant.
Milking the HP cock seemed to only be an alternative to using the fuel trimmers.
Milking the HP cock seemed to only be an alternative to using the fuel trimmers.
Milking the HP cock was needed after trimming the fuel trimmers back to zero. A normal start, OAT less than 15c fuel trimmers set 100% prior to start. OAT above 15c fuel trimmers set to 50% prior to start. With either setting, as soon as light up occured the EGT would rise rapidly meaning in practise the first action was to trim back to zero, with EGT tending to continue to rise rapidly one had to ease back the fuel HP cock to prevent exceeding EGT start limit.
p.s. It is all a distant nightmare... I mean memory E.O.E. EGT may have been TGT.
p1fel
Last edited by p1fel; 11th Nov 2012 at 09:29.
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An odd coincidence. When I was about twelve, and aviation mad, I was living in Western Australia. The local airline, McRobertson Miller was replacing its DC3s with F27s, and the paper ran a competition (I forget what the entry was) with a first prize of a day out with the crew. I won the competition, but the notification arrived too late to take up the offer, and the airline wouldn't budge on an alternative date. Strange to think that some twenty years later I would end up having a command on the same type.
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Milking the HP cock was needed after trimming the fuel trimmers back to zero. A normal start, OAT less than 15c fuel trimmers set 100% prior to start. OAT above 15c fuel trimmers set to 50% prior to start. With either setting, as soon as light up occured the EGT would rise rapidly meaning in practise the first action was to trim back to zero, with EGT tending to continue to rise rapidly one had to ease back the fuel HP cock to prevent exceeding EGT start limit.
p.s. It is all a distant nightmare... I mean memory E.O.E.
p1fel
p.s. It is all a distant nightmare... I mean memory E.O.E.
p1fel
Seem to remember something about an 1830 mod. on the Dart. What was that?
Anyways....back to youtube for more.
Last edited by JammedStab; 10th Nov 2012 at 15:21.