hadley page herald and f27
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Herald was a 1956-turbine variant of Miles 1947 M.73; 48 were sold cf.786 F-27: in ’95 a ’71-built F-27 was bought for $1.2Mn. by Channel Express/Hurn to replace its last Herald whose price new in 1963 had been less. Aer Lingus (then a BEAC-Associate) had been Launch Customer for F-27 in 1956, discarding HP's bid, unimpressed by weight of Victors in work, underwhelmed by HP’s priority on the richer product. They sought performance guarantees, fixed prices/specs/delivery, including spares and tools: Greek to HP. At that point no-one knew the practical operational issues posted here.
It was quite difficult actually to buy a Herald: R.Jordanian A.F. took 2, R.Malaysian A.F.10 as HP knew his way around military business (though 3/62 MoA chose 31 HS780 as RAF Andover C.1). But airlines were alien: HP Ltd. had ventured beyond Dover to terra incognita only twice - 1919 to China for 6 bombers-as-transports, and SABENA,Belgium, 1922, 2(+13 licenced) others. HP preferred to sell in Whitehall’s one-stop shop to RAF and Imperial A/W. Civilians despaired and went to Fokker, who cared. Flight Intnl. 23/12/98 Herald obituary: “the pilot feels he is exercising some skill if he taxies (smoothly...cockpit: ) tolerably comfortable for relatively short flights” but its virtue had been seen as “pleasant handling characteristics...pilot appeal.” Airliners are not sold to pilots.
Failure was not Govt.'s fault. HP was given Launch Aid by way of imposition on BEAC of an order for 3, funded from the Scottish Highlands & Islands budget (today: EU cohesion fund). Netherlands Govt. did not order 12 for RNethAF until the type had penetrated wide civil market..inc. Oz, to HP's chagrin. I suggest brick dunny, normal Brit heaviness, over-engineered, heedless of operating economics, which in UK then were never a Design Case.
It was quite difficult actually to buy a Herald: R.Jordanian A.F. took 2, R.Malaysian A.F.10 as HP knew his way around military business (though 3/62 MoA chose 31 HS780 as RAF Andover C.1). But airlines were alien: HP Ltd. had ventured beyond Dover to terra incognita only twice - 1919 to China for 6 bombers-as-transports, and SABENA,Belgium, 1922, 2(+13 licenced) others. HP preferred to sell in Whitehall’s one-stop shop to RAF and Imperial A/W. Civilians despaired and went to Fokker, who cared. Flight Intnl. 23/12/98 Herald obituary: “the pilot feels he is exercising some skill if he taxies (smoothly...cockpit: ) tolerably comfortable for relatively short flights” but its virtue had been seen as “pleasant handling characteristics...pilot appeal.” Airliners are not sold to pilots.
Failure was not Govt.'s fault. HP was given Launch Aid by way of imposition on BEAC of an order for 3, funded from the Scottish Highlands & Islands budget (today: EU cohesion fund). Netherlands Govt. did not order 12 for RNethAF until the type had penetrated wide civil market..inc. Oz, to HP's chagrin. I suggest brick dunny, normal Brit heaviness, over-engineered, heedless of operating economics, which in UK then were never a Design Case.
A Runyonesque Character
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I was amused to read in W'pedia that the last ever Herald passenger flight was for ... Ryanair.
My one and only Herald flight was for Sabena.
My one and only Herald flight was for Sabena.
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Herod ...
But the 748 was an Avro product, the Herald was a Handley Page product ... and guess who's product the Jetstream was ... Handley Page
Agreed though that the ATP was/is a piece of cr@p
But the 748 was an Avro product, the Herald was a Handley Page product ... and guess who's product the Jetstream was ... Handley Page
Agreed though that the ATP was/is a piece of cr@p
Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
...not to say the F27 was anything to smile about and why Fokker stuck with the same 1950's design shape for their F50 ... well that's perhaps why they went bankrupt!
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The ATP. Ha! I remember when they were on Scottish services from Manchester when I was running a project in Glasgow. More often than not the aeroplane would go tech and BA would put us on the Man Shuttle to H'row, then the H'row Shuttle to Glasgow.
I much preferred the Budgie, and BA used to do quite a good breakfast on them on the morning flight Man to Aberdeen. Much better than the alternative Business Air Saabs whose o'head lockers wouldn't even take a briefcase!
I much preferred the Budgie, and BA used to do quite a good breakfast on them on the morning flight Man to Aberdeen. Much better than the alternative Business Air Saabs whose o'head lockers wouldn't even take a briefcase!
Since the 748 has somehow landed in this thread, let's not forget that the RAF's Andover version, with its fancy undercart, rear loading ramp an' all, could barely lift itself off the ground in hot conditions, even at sea-level, let alone a payload.
When the glorious Twin-pin was sacked from Sharjah, the Andover replacement sometimes picked up less for a particular sortie than the Twin-pin would have done in the same conditions. That was, admittedly, partly because the Andover flight's idea of a suitable diversion fuel load was a bit different from the Twin-pin flight's more pragmatic notions.
It also brought with it an intolerable amount of bureaucracy; we had to "check-in" 30 minutes before a flight instead of rolling up to the aircraft in a Landrover while the engines were starting, at SHJ at least, but that's another story. They wanted to take our personal weapons as well, but they lost that one.
When the glorious Twin-pin was sacked from Sharjah, the Andover replacement sometimes picked up less for a particular sortie than the Twin-pin would have done in the same conditions. That was, admittedly, partly because the Andover flight's idea of a suitable diversion fuel load was a bit different from the Twin-pin flight's more pragmatic notions.
It also brought with it an intolerable amount of bureaucracy; we had to "check-in" 30 minutes before a flight instead of rolling up to the aircraft in a Landrover while the engines were starting, at SHJ at least, but that's another story. They wanted to take our personal weapons as well, but they lost that one.
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Eastern Provincial Airways (Canada), based in Gander, Newfoundland, operated 4 Dart Heralds. One was lost in a fatal crash in 1965 due to corrosion. The bottom of the fuselage ruptured.
The SSK,I think that I may have done one of those Ryanair flights in a Herald. BAF had a short term contract to fly the LTN -Waterford route in 1988 as the 748 they usually used was not available.
I thought the Herald was an awful aircraft. The cockpit layout was a disaster and the handling was less than crisp.Flying it was like trying to drag a supertanker through custard with one arm behind your back.
I thought the Herald was an awful aircraft. The cockpit layout was a disaster and the handling was less than crisp.Flying it was like trying to drag a supertanker through custard with one arm behind your back.
Last edited by tubby linton; 5th Nov 2012 at 19:28.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
By a strange quirk of fate, my initial line training on the F27 was done by "Hazel" Hasleden, who, as Chief Pilot for HP, had an "interesting" arrival in a field in a Dart Herald. I'm sure it's on the net somewhere.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Looks like Europe Aero Services colour scheme to me SSK.
Edit: Snap!
Edit: Snap!
Last edited by treadigraph; 5th Nov 2012 at 20:27.
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Want to know more about the Handley Page Herald? There's a book written by Graham Cowell isbn 0 7106 0045 3 published in 1980 by Janes in the UK.
Herod, Sqn Ldr Hazelden was at the controls of G-AODE on its was to the 1958 Farnborough Air show, when suddenly the low pressure turbine of the starboard dart burst and a large fragment cut through two of the engine bearers and severed the fuel line, causing a catastrophic fire. The flames melted the nacelle off in about 2 minutes and it fell off, complete with the engine. The fire extinguisher had little effect, they lost height and tried to make a crash landing. The aircraft started to pitch and he thought it might break up. When the engine fell away there was a violent roll which he was just able to recover control. Fuel pouring from the tanks fed the flames, which in turn caused part of the tailplane to come away. Hazelden made a wheels up crash landing in a stubble field near Godalming. All nine occupants managed to rush to safety.
I cut my teeth on the Herald as a young F.O. (I flew the Herald a total of 642Hours). It was a very slow docile machine but could handle one hell of a crosswind with ease (if memory serves me well officially rated 35Kts across) was a doddle at that and more.
The Friendship on the other!!! (I Flew the FK27 2,938 Hours). Although it was a faster aircraft than the Herald the FK27 was trickier to handle (if memory serves me correctly I think it was rated 28 Kts across) and it could be a pig. I think Herod would agree, it sorted the men from the boys did the FK27 Friendship.
As with most flying machines, they had their pro's and con's.
I did some desert work in the HPR7 and with its double nose wheels it was able to do 180's without getting bogged down in the sand. The FK27 on the other hand had a single nose wheel and when the locals started operating them doing the same desert work, they soon got into difficulties with it.
Herod, Sqn Ldr Hazelden was at the controls of G-AODE on its was to the 1958 Farnborough Air show, when suddenly the low pressure turbine of the starboard dart burst and a large fragment cut through two of the engine bearers and severed the fuel line, causing a catastrophic fire. The flames melted the nacelle off in about 2 minutes and it fell off, complete with the engine. The fire extinguisher had little effect, they lost height and tried to make a crash landing. The aircraft started to pitch and he thought it might break up. When the engine fell away there was a violent roll which he was just able to recover control. Fuel pouring from the tanks fed the flames, which in turn caused part of the tailplane to come away. Hazelden made a wheels up crash landing in a stubble field near Godalming. All nine occupants managed to rush to safety.
I cut my teeth on the Herald as a young F.O. (I flew the Herald a total of 642Hours). It was a very slow docile machine but could handle one hell of a crosswind with ease (if memory serves me well officially rated 35Kts across) was a doddle at that and more.
The Friendship on the other!!! (I Flew the FK27 2,938 Hours). Although it was a faster aircraft than the Herald the FK27 was trickier to handle (if memory serves me correctly I think it was rated 28 Kts across) and it could be a pig. I think Herod would agree, it sorted the men from the boys did the FK27 Friendship.
As with most flying machines, they had their pro's and con's.
I did some desert work in the HPR7 and with its double nose wheels it was able to do 180's without getting bogged down in the sand. The FK27 on the other hand had a single nose wheel and when the locals started operating them doing the same desert work, they soon got into difficulties with it.
Last edited by p1fel; 6th Nov 2012 at 17:35.
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I flew both back in the early 70s : The HPR7 with BIA and then the F27 in the Gulf where we were collectively known as the ‘Friendly Fokkers’.
I had previously flown as a Flight Test Engineer with Handley Page at Radlett where a favourite expression of HP crew about HP aircraft was “Too heavy, too slow, too late but they handle beautifully”.
The Herald certainly cut the mustard with the weather around the Channel Islands. I remember on one occasion ‘letters to the editor’ of the local rag in Soton. “Sir, During the recent storms shipping was delayed, train services disrupted, trees blown down blocking roads and women and children blown off their feet. It was significant that British island Airways was operating to schedule at Southampton Airport.”
Compared to the Herald the F27 was a bit of a sports car and did a pretty good job in the various roles around the Middle East for Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air swapping from pax to freighter with relative ease – the large cargo door making the loading of oil drilling equipment comparatively stress free. With the boosted RR Darts it managed the raw heat of the desert although the performance wasn’t exactly sparkling mid-Summer. I well remember the slogs, from Muscat to Salalah, in the monsoon getting a basic radar service onto the sand runway there – or was it an NDB approach?
Pretty basic stuff in those days……Topo., stopwatch and the odd NDB in the desert that may work if someone had remembered to fill the generator with diesel.
Great days even tho’ they wrecked my hearing!
I had previously flown as a Flight Test Engineer with Handley Page at Radlett where a favourite expression of HP crew about HP aircraft was “Too heavy, too slow, too late but they handle beautifully”.
The Herald certainly cut the mustard with the weather around the Channel Islands. I remember on one occasion ‘letters to the editor’ of the local rag in Soton. “Sir, During the recent storms shipping was delayed, train services disrupted, trees blown down blocking roads and women and children blown off their feet. It was significant that British island Airways was operating to schedule at Southampton Airport.”
Compared to the Herald the F27 was a bit of a sports car and did a pretty good job in the various roles around the Middle East for Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air swapping from pax to freighter with relative ease – the large cargo door making the loading of oil drilling equipment comparatively stress free. With the boosted RR Darts it managed the raw heat of the desert although the performance wasn’t exactly sparkling mid-Summer. I well remember the slogs, from Muscat to Salalah, in the monsoon getting a basic radar service onto the sand runway there – or was it an NDB approach?
Pretty basic stuff in those days……Topo., stopwatch and the odd NDB in the desert that may work if someone had remembered to fill the generator with diesel.
Great days even tho’ they wrecked my hearing!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Hello P1fel.
Yes, and I had the privilege of being told it by Hazel himself. A nice little touch. He had a pen that had been presented to him by the HP management. Said pen was in the holder alongside the seat. After the remains of the Herald were extinguished, one of the firemen returned the pen: undamaged. The Herald was, I believe, being accompanied to Farnborough by a Hastings. If any pictures were taken, they don't seem to be in the public domain. I guess since it was supposed to be a trip to drum up sales, such pictures would have been quickly destroyed.
Leeds/Bradford with a wind of about 220/25, gusting 35. I'm sure you remember it well! Not only did it sort the men from the boys; it also sorted the men from their hair.
Yes, and I had the privilege of being told it by Hazel himself. A nice little touch. He had a pen that had been presented to him by the HP management. Said pen was in the holder alongside the seat. After the remains of the Herald were extinguished, one of the firemen returned the pen: undamaged. The Herald was, I believe, being accompanied to Farnborough by a Hastings. If any pictures were taken, they don't seem to be in the public domain. I guess since it was supposed to be a trip to drum up sales, such pictures would have been quickly destroyed.
Leeds/Bradford with a wind of about 220/25, gusting 35. I'm sure you remember it well! Not only did it sort the men from the boys; it also sorted the men from their hair.
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P1fel sums the two a/c up well.
I too began on Heralds in the mid-70's and because it was my first airliner, I at first I thought it wonderful! It handled well but the performance was dire - (eg)we would use standing waves off hills to gain altitude because it was the only way we'd make our cleared level to cross (say) an airway. It was well-built and was very stable in strong X-winds & bad wx.
Then, after 500hr or so, I went onto the F27 and realised why the world was full of Fokkers! Faster, better performance, does what the sales brochure says. But, as others have stated above, not as nice to handle, all over the place in strong winds and a pig to land well. And we all looked on enviously at Avro748 drivers, 'cos we all knew instinctively it was the best twin-turboprop of the day.
Funnily enough, I went on to fly the BAC111 as my first jet. Then I went on to fly DC9's and very quickly realised why the world was full of DC9's and not BAC111's - a DC9 on one engine had a better performance than a 111 on two! Not unlike comparing the Herald and F27, except that the '9 was built like the proverbial outhouse, had fighter-like performance due to those big JT8's, was pure joy to handle, and the mount of choice in appalling weather.
I too began on Heralds in the mid-70's and because it was my first airliner, I at first I thought it wonderful! It handled well but the performance was dire - (eg)we would use standing waves off hills to gain altitude because it was the only way we'd make our cleared level to cross (say) an airway. It was well-built and was very stable in strong X-winds & bad wx.
Then, after 500hr or so, I went onto the F27 and realised why the world was full of Fokkers! Faster, better performance, does what the sales brochure says. But, as others have stated above, not as nice to handle, all over the place in strong winds and a pig to land well. And we all looked on enviously at Avro748 drivers, 'cos we all knew instinctively it was the best twin-turboprop of the day.
Funnily enough, I went on to fly the BAC111 as my first jet. Then I went on to fly DC9's and very quickly realised why the world was full of DC9's and not BAC111's - a DC9 on one engine had a better performance than a 111 on two! Not unlike comparing the Herald and F27, except that the '9 was built like the proverbial outhouse, had fighter-like performance due to those big JT8's, was pure joy to handle, and the mount of choice in appalling weather.
After returning from Singapore I flew BIA Heralds for four months during the winter of 78/79 before joining a new start called Air Europe. My distant memories of the aircraft are very favourable and I would have been happy to have spent longer in what was a very pleasant job. Unfortunately, at that time BIA Herald captains earned less than Crawley bus drivers and I had a family to support!
Pro's: It flew a lot better than it looked. The Herald handled nicely and cruised at a respectable 200 knots. It was remarkably stable and cross wind landings were a piece of doddle, even in a howlng Manx gale! I can't remember ever being delayed by a technical problem. Being snowed in at Jersey and then Guernsey during January 1979 was a high spot. The BIA hosties!
Con's: A Heath Robinson nosewheel steering system, which consisted of left and right micro-switches activated by a small yoke on top of the control wheel. Straight ahead could be a variable wander!
The flight deck could get extremely cold, even on one hour sectors. Dark early morning newspaper flights to Jersey and Guernsey before fitting 50 passenger seats and another four sectors.
Pro's: It flew a lot better than it looked. The Herald handled nicely and cruised at a respectable 200 knots. It was remarkably stable and cross wind landings were a piece of doddle, even in a howlng Manx gale! I can't remember ever being delayed by a technical problem. Being snowed in at Jersey and then Guernsey during January 1979 was a high spot. The BIA hosties!
Con's: A Heath Robinson nosewheel steering system, which consisted of left and right micro-switches activated by a small yoke on top of the control wheel. Straight ahead could be a variable wander!
The flight deck could get extremely cold, even on one hour sectors. Dark early morning newspaper flights to Jersey and Guernsey before fitting 50 passenger seats and another four sectors.