G-ARPI - The Trident Tragedy: 40 years ago today
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I stayed up late last night and read through most of the AAIB Report on the Papa India crash....what I would like to know is how the Trident compared for 'incidents' with say the 727 and the BAC-111 and how BEA's record compared with other users of the Trident particularly CAAC.
Gruntie, agree, don't think there were all that many people just ogling and subsequently labelled ghouls by Harold Wilson. And I don't think the label ever really fit; I'm sure many of the people who left their cars on the verge were there to try to help. Many would not have known what in fact had happened other than that there had been an accident. My friends and I had heard at the car rental desk that there had been an accident but, of course, there were no details at the time. We saw many ambulances racing past us to what we eventually realised was the scene. At Staines itself all we could see was an embankment and we just sat in the car and nudged forward as we could, wondering as to what might have happened.
One of my friends was an ex USAF navigator, the other a friend who'd lived some time in South America, as I had. All of us fairly thick-skinned, through over- familiarity, with regard to crashes. Only when we reached our respective destinations did the penny sink in that this one was really bad.
And Noyade, always useful to cite the source :-)
One of my friends was an ex USAF navigator, the other a friend who'd lived some time in South America, as I had. All of us fairly thick-skinned, through over- familiarity, with regard to crashes. Only when we reached our respective destinations did the penny sink in that this one was really bad.
And Noyade, always useful to cite the source :-)
Last edited by broadreach; 29th Jun 2012 at 01:03.
Aileron drag.
Don't remember where but we did have a 65sec cutback. Could have been 28 in Zurich as the noise measuring point was at Rumlang.
Height obviously depended on WAT, certainly had several cutbacks by 500ft and more disturbing for a P2 only and not adequately trained was when we started descending as we hit a bubble of descending air before we flew into the associated strong thermal.
In Evans cross examination at the inquiry he was asked about the statistics that one in eight FDR showed that SOP departures were being ignored. This didn't take into account those tapes that were chucked off Eton bridge.
Had 365 knots on a Daventry one dep by three grand once; infamous Jock who had the ship clean by 1000ft on take off power and with his nose on the glare shield yanked the throttles back as he passed over the noise points- confided that he had driven around and knew precisely their locations.
In the Wardair safety digest there is a quote from BA Doc stating that pilots over 49 should not be converted to Concorde because of 25% failure rate, although the Trident wasn't droop snoop it was beyond the capabilities of many of our older skippers including Key and our training chief who rarely ever flew without George being plugged in.
BEA had this wonderful idea that everyone could be a skipper on a complicated, unstable aircraft and that is what we had to live with as SOs.
Don't remember where but we did have a 65sec cutback. Could have been 28 in Zurich as the noise measuring point was at Rumlang.
Height obviously depended on WAT, certainly had several cutbacks by 500ft and more disturbing for a P2 only and not adequately trained was when we started descending as we hit a bubble of descending air before we flew into the associated strong thermal.
In Evans cross examination at the inquiry he was asked about the statistics that one in eight FDR showed that SOP departures were being ignored. This didn't take into account those tapes that were chucked off Eton bridge.
Had 365 knots on a Daventry one dep by three grand once; infamous Jock who had the ship clean by 1000ft on take off power and with his nose on the glare shield yanked the throttles back as he passed over the noise points- confided that he had driven around and knew precisely their locations.
In the Wardair safety digest there is a quote from BA Doc stating that pilots over 49 should not be converted to Concorde because of 25% failure rate, although the Trident wasn't droop snoop it was beyond the capabilities of many of our older skippers including Key and our training chief who rarely ever flew without George being plugged in.
BEA had this wonderful idea that everyone could be a skipper on a complicated, unstable aircraft and that is what we had to live with as SOs.
A30yoyo
Sorry but you can't compare tomatoes wiv bananas or whatever.
Would say that in my six years we destroyed eight aircraft two of which weren't pilot error.
Four of which were tridents.
And if you looked at Airtours with the hot shots they destroyed two out of ten 707s including a horrific idiotic training b@lls up at Prestwick and a crash in Crete where they loaded pax onto a broken aircraft after Olympic refused to sign the Tech log and flew back to Gatwick.
Both wings were bent and one pylon bolt sheared and the wings were leaking fuel.
We had a Very dodgy command training short field landing which went wrong when I was base training and a year later one of my many trainers bent another Trident at PWK.
look at bomber command statistics you will find an unbelievable number of training casualties.
If you read the thread about gaining a RAF brevet you will see that later on in the war a specialised advanced training unit was established.
young men were frightened of the Lancaster and for an old f@rt a Trident was in a whole different ball park.
AirFrance at this time would keep the older guys who couldn't cope with swept wing jets on prop aircraft - no disgrace and same salary.
But we also had many outstanding older guys who could throw the Trident around and were a pleasure to fly with and watch but there weren't that many in the training department.
One was our future queens grandad.
Sorry but you can't compare tomatoes wiv bananas or whatever.
Would say that in my six years we destroyed eight aircraft two of which weren't pilot error.
Four of which were tridents.
And if you looked at Airtours with the hot shots they destroyed two out of ten 707s including a horrific idiotic training b@lls up at Prestwick and a crash in Crete where they loaded pax onto a broken aircraft after Olympic refused to sign the Tech log and flew back to Gatwick.
Both wings were bent and one pylon bolt sheared and the wings were leaking fuel.
We had a Very dodgy command training short field landing which went wrong when I was base training and a year later one of my many trainers bent another Trident at PWK.
look at bomber command statistics you will find an unbelievable number of training casualties.
If you read the thread about gaining a RAF brevet you will see that later on in the war a specialised advanced training unit was established.
young men were frightened of the Lancaster and for an old f@rt a Trident was in a whole different ball park.
AirFrance at this time would keep the older guys who couldn't cope with swept wing jets on prop aircraft - no disgrace and same salary.
But we also had many outstanding older guys who could throw the Trident around and were a pleasure to fly with and watch but there weren't that many in the training department.
One was our future queens grandad.
And Noyade, always useful to cite the source :-)
Cheers.
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Staines Crash 1972
I thought the testimonies in the BBC page on the crash were interesting,and suggest that the press/politicians manufactured the 'ghouls' notion. Capt.Key's daughter message is worth reading ...is that right about a 50-year 'block' on document release?BBC ON THIS DAY | 18 | 1972: Memories of the Staines air crash
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tubby linton - I did not make that comment. I believe that assertion was made by Blind Pew.
Herod - I don't have an axe to grind. Like Blind Pew, I worked with Pete Middleton, and I cannot believe he would have wanted his grand-daughter to achieve in life through marriage alone.
Herod - I don't have an axe to grind. Like Blind Pew, I worked with Pete Middleton, and I cannot believe he would have wanted his grand-daughter to achieve in life through marriage alone.
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Correction
One male passenger survived I believe until the following day. This I know as I was working in the mortuary on the Northside of LHR somewhere upon the site of the hotel now.
The remains were brought to us and I found it very strange that the male passenger was wrapped up as a mummy and the face was the only visible part. I was told by a doctor that due to the broken bones that was practice then and was the same concept used at major road crashes for survivers.
To do this day I still fail to understand why there is never any mention of that survivor ?
After this there was much talk of airport centres for the remains of any future aviation incident, as that used then was a hangar which can only be described as a disgrace even then. As always nothing happened as the costs were prohibitive.
Final thought the remains were all intact with little or no visible damage which I suppose is a credit to the strength of the Trident. The crew lay in plastic bags as if in a deep sleep - haunts me even to day !
The remains were brought to us and I found it very strange that the male passenger was wrapped up as a mummy and the face was the only visible part. I was told by a doctor that due to the broken bones that was practice then and was the same concept used at major road crashes for survivers.
To do this day I still fail to understand why there is never any mention of that survivor ?
After this there was much talk of airport centres for the remains of any future aviation incident, as that used then was a hangar which can only be described as a disgrace even then. As always nothing happened as the costs were prohibitive.
Final thought the remains were all intact with little or no visible damage which I suppose is a credit to the strength of the Trident. The crew lay in plastic bags as if in a deep sleep - haunts me even to day !
Aileron Drag
Took me thirty years before I discovered the "Masons" connection but I then left in 78!
Especially relevant when I found that the authorities test pilot appeared at the inquiry but there is no mention of him in the report and then I read his biography in handling the big jets that he is assistant master!
Sadly the little boys club didn't stop there.
The trident was speed unstable as it approached way on the backside of the drag curve.
Min drag was somewhere above 200 knots.
Had to do a go around due to an Alitalia DC 8 crew who didn't understand english, hoiked the nose up as throttles weren firewalled and the speed fell off (we were at V min app) ended up lowering the nose to accelerate and clean up.
Daren't comment on it as was having my annual route check with one of the guys who stood up against the masons at the inquiry. Didn't understand what went wrong but the proceedure was flawed as several checklists were and still were twenty years on! (cross feeding with jettison pumps and splitting the on ground emergency checklists).
We nearly lost a T three at Madrid after it lost a donk on t/o from Malaga. As usual the Madrid controllers (worst in Europe at the time) Lined up Iberia and blocked the runway. Skipper opened the taps but aircraft continues towards terra firma - he hadn't considered the WAT curves - so he pointed the nose down, cleaned up and did a very low circuit.
Took me thirty years before I discovered the "Masons" connection but I then left in 78!
Especially relevant when I found that the authorities test pilot appeared at the inquiry but there is no mention of him in the report and then I read his biography in handling the big jets that he is assistant master!
Sadly the little boys club didn't stop there.
The trident was speed unstable as it approached way on the backside of the drag curve.
Min drag was somewhere above 200 knots.
Had to do a go around due to an Alitalia DC 8 crew who didn't understand english, hoiked the nose up as throttles weren firewalled and the speed fell off (we were at V min app) ended up lowering the nose to accelerate and clean up.
Daren't comment on it as was having my annual route check with one of the guys who stood up against the masons at the inquiry. Didn't understand what went wrong but the proceedure was flawed as several checklists were and still were twenty years on! (cross feeding with jettison pumps and splitting the on ground emergency checklists).
We nearly lost a T three at Madrid after it lost a donk on t/o from Malaga. As usual the Madrid controllers (worst in Europe at the time) Lined up Iberia and blocked the runway. Skipper opened the taps but aircraft continues towards terra firma - he hadn't considered the WAT curves - so he pointed the nose down, cleaned up and did a very low circuit.
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Bean,
I didn't fly with Stan Key. Papa India went in while I was undergoing my Trident training course. I only knew of his reputation from mates who were a few months ahead of me.
Blind Pew was one of those mates, and he would probably have more first-hand knowledge of the guy. There were several (many!) captains on the Trident in '72 who were an absolute nightmare to fly with. I expect Blind Pew and I could write a list of names each which, if compared, would be identical !!!
I didn't fly with Stan Key. Papa India went in while I was undergoing my Trident training course. I only knew of his reputation from mates who were a few months ahead of me.
Blind Pew was one of those mates, and he would probably have more first-hand knowledge of the guy. There were several (many!) captains on the Trident in '72 who were an absolute nightmare to fly with. I expect Blind Pew and I could write a list of names each which, if compared, would be identical !!!
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I worked for BEA then BA as a mechanic at Glasgow in the 70's and found that a high percentage of Trident captains were arrogant and ill-mannered to the ground staff.It was so bad on one occasion that I complained to my shop steward and was told to inform the captain that if his manners did not improve neither he nor his aeroplane would be going anywhere. This resulted in an apology and the excuse that his flight manager was giving him a hard time.
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Good for you, bcgallacher. Wish I'd been able to do that.
I remember one guy who would shake hands and introduce himself to a two-ring First Officer, but would cut the other bloke dead if he was a one-ring Second Officer. Having flown with him many times, and been ignored, I did a trip with him a few days after putting up my second ring and, guess what? Yes, he shook hands and introduced himself - as if we really had never met.
Another guy introduced himself with the immortal line, "My name is Captain ******. You can call me Sir."
Oh dear...........don't get me going..........must take my pills.
I remember one guy who would shake hands and introduce himself to a two-ring First Officer, but would cut the other bloke dead if he was a one-ring Second Officer. Having flown with him many times, and been ignored, I did a trip with him a few days after putting up my second ring and, guess what? Yes, he shook hands and introduced himself - as if we really had never met.
Another guy introduced himself with the immortal line, "My name is Captain ******. You can call me Sir."
Oh dear...........don't get me going..........must take my pills.
Stan Key was a victim of bullying from a few cowards who wouldn't take on management or Ron Gillman who along with Stan were the reps at the Munich inquiry. Jimmy Thain was sacked, Ron had set up BEA training (real dapper figure and boys own hero as well as in the guild) whereas Stan was just a bloke helping out with BALPA and these idiots picked on Stan as a sport.
Witnessed him being set upon two days before the crash - a bl@@dy disgrace.
Didn't fly with him but know a special guy who did on vanguards (he crashed during base training and BEA nearly lost two vanguards with a very close Airmiss). He said Stan was a nice bloke but couldn't handle the Trident and developed a nervous tic the closer he got to terra firma. There was a joke that the radio alt was superfluous.
As to aileron drags comments on management he is being very generous to one individual, who if I can guess His identity was a bit naive.
For me it was the strokes these guys pulled after the accident and at the inquiry that are sickening; quite sure they would have sacrificed their own grannies if needed.
Remember the stories about Ron Collins......
Sadly the little boys club is apparently alive and kicking in BA and the CAA but it ain't any different in frog or paddy land.
Witnessed him being set upon two days before the crash - a bl@@dy disgrace.
Didn't fly with him but know a special guy who did on vanguards (he crashed during base training and BEA nearly lost two vanguards with a very close Airmiss). He said Stan was a nice bloke but couldn't handle the Trident and developed a nervous tic the closer he got to terra firma. There was a joke that the radio alt was superfluous.
As to aileron drags comments on management he is being very generous to one individual, who if I can guess His identity was a bit naive.
For me it was the strokes these guys pulled after the accident and at the inquiry that are sickening; quite sure they would have sacrificed their own grannies if needed.
Remember the stories about Ron Collins......
Sadly the little boys club is apparently alive and kicking in BA and the CAA but it ain't any different in frog or paddy land.
Bcgallacher
You were lucky mate, no buggar stood up for us baby drivers.
Wife was sexually assaulted on the jump seat - didn't dare say anything.
A year later she threatened to miscarry in ATH - forced to work back against doctors advice then spent a week in hospital.
I was called up and threatened with the sack if I interfered again.
One skipper called us by our seat designation P2 or P3, another "John" as neither could be bothered to learn our names.
Best story was a little fight in cruise between a MENSA member and a certain S/O after a hostess had been assaulted..over the seat belts sign...
Great ship to fly after a couple of years of unlearning the rubbish we had been taught by the trainers and watching how the real pilots could fly it.
Built like a brick built sh*t house and flew a bit like one.
Official cross wind technique from the horses mouth was fly it into the runway - the aircraft can take it (which wasn't always true) - but the guy did manage to get it very close to the sound barrier with the afor mentioned lasses husbands grandmother on board - work that one out.
You were lucky mate, no buggar stood up for us baby drivers.
Wife was sexually assaulted on the jump seat - didn't dare say anything.
A year later she threatened to miscarry in ATH - forced to work back against doctors advice then spent a week in hospital.
I was called up and threatened with the sack if I interfered again.
One skipper called us by our seat designation P2 or P3, another "John" as neither could be bothered to learn our names.
Best story was a little fight in cruise between a MENSA member and a certain S/O after a hostess had been assaulted..over the seat belts sign...
Great ship to fly after a couple of years of unlearning the rubbish we had been taught by the trainers and watching how the real pilots could fly it.
Built like a brick built sh*t house and flew a bit like one.
Official cross wind technique from the horses mouth was fly it into the runway - the aircraft can take it (which wasn't always true) - but the guy did manage to get it very close to the sound barrier with the afor mentioned lasses husbands grandmother on board - work that one out.
Blindpew, thank you for you explanation regarding the instability of the aircraft..How did it cope with a low go-around from an autoland?
Last edited by tubby linton; 4th Jul 2012 at 07:48.
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Absolutely fascinating information coming out in this thread, it makes me very sad that people such as are described would pervert the course of an enquiry where the purpose is to get at the truth.
But as ever it isn't what you know, it's who you know. Politics raises its ugly head in all fields of human endeavour...
But as ever it isn't what you know, it's who you know. Politics raises its ugly head in all fields of human endeavour...
Last edited by Feathers McGraw; 4th Jul 2012 at 13:38. Reason: Changed language to remove ambiguity