Short Belfast-why?
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Why Short Belfast?
Harland & Wolff's “sturdy and ardent men” (Churchill, The Great War) had built 300xD.H.6, 600xAvro 504J/K/N, 1xHP 0/400 and 17xV/1500. Air Ministry appointed them 6/1936 to run an Agency Factory, and put Short Bros. in bed with them to teach and supervise (on Bristol Bombay and HP (Hampden) Hereford?! They soon moved to Sunderlands and Stirlings). Short & Harland was 60% Short Bros., 40% H&W. Modest local design capability. On 23/3/43 UK nationalised Short Bros, closed down Rochester Airport Works in 1946, Seaplane Works 7/48, inviting designers to move to Ulster. Short Bros. & Harland was then 18% H&W, 82% us.
Sydenham was greatly exhanced/modernised in Korean War expansion: it was not SB&H's fault that MoS' intentions for second sourcing were frustrated - Swift, Comet 2. They were one of 3 Canberra second-sources (sole source on PR.9), and, earlier, one of many erectors of aluminium pre-fab homes. Britannia was nominated, so Bristol bought 15.25% (H&W then 15.25%, we, 69.5%) to ensure oversight: 12xcivil, 18xRAF were built there, plus structure chunks for 5xRAF assembled at Filton.
In 1958 UK thought it needed to move Blue Streak (maybe Thor) around. Bristol came up with T.179B, a cube on Britannia wings. MoS invented a wholly-spurious key Requirement for Blind Landing as the excuse not to do the sensible thing - to lease USAF's Atlas-mover, C-133A. (now SC.5 Britannic, soon Belfast) was ordered 1960 with Smith's Cat.IIIA Autoland, to be design-led at Filton, who would ship wings to Sydenham. Saro was also empty so to encourage Westland to buy them, they were given rear fuselage and ramp. A run of 30 had been envisaged, but Blue Streak was chopped, 13/4/60, so 10 was a minimum to give some purpose introducing an oddity. SB&H bid it in 1960 with blown flaps, and again in 1964
as Britannic 6 with RB178 (RB211 precursor) on Lockheed C-141 wing.
A to Q is that the type was blatent make-work: better buying something than putting folk on the dole - Harland's aero and marine site was near-unique in staffing across Ulster's sectarian schism. All was politics, employment in a divided island. Just like assigning there 13 of the 14 RAF VC10 fuselages. Vickers-Armstrongs' MD Geo.Edwards saw the Minister and offered to pay the wages (not overheads) of everybody who would be occupied making them in Sydenham, and to make them at Weybridge...for less than the price MoA contemplated paying Shorts.
Sydenham was greatly exhanced/modernised in Korean War expansion: it was not SB&H's fault that MoS' intentions for second sourcing were frustrated - Swift, Comet 2. They were one of 3 Canberra second-sources (sole source on PR.9), and, earlier, one of many erectors of aluminium pre-fab homes. Britannia was nominated, so Bristol bought 15.25% (H&W then 15.25%, we, 69.5%) to ensure oversight: 12xcivil, 18xRAF were built there, plus structure chunks for 5xRAF assembled at Filton.
In 1958 UK thought it needed to move Blue Streak (maybe Thor) around. Bristol came up with T.179B, a cube on Britannia wings. MoS invented a wholly-spurious key Requirement for Blind Landing as the excuse not to do the sensible thing - to lease USAF's Atlas-mover, C-133A. (now SC.5 Britannic, soon Belfast) was ordered 1960 with Smith's Cat.IIIA Autoland, to be design-led at Filton, who would ship wings to Sydenham. Saro was also empty so to encourage Westland to buy them, they were given rear fuselage and ramp. A run of 30 had been envisaged, but Blue Streak was chopped, 13/4/60, so 10 was a minimum to give some purpose introducing an oddity. SB&H bid it in 1960 with blown flaps, and again in 1964
as Britannic 6 with RB178 (RB211 precursor) on Lockheed C-141 wing.
A to Q is that the type was blatent make-work: better buying something than putting folk on the dole - Harland's aero and marine site was near-unique in staffing across Ulster's sectarian schism. All was politics, employment in a divided island. Just like assigning there 13 of the 14 RAF VC10 fuselages. Vickers-Armstrongs' MD Geo.Edwards saw the Minister and offered to pay the wages (not overheads) of everybody who would be occupied making them in Sydenham, and to make them at Weybridge...for less than the price MoA contemplated paying Shorts.
Last edited by tornadoken; 22nd Apr 2012 at 13:35.
Pre GT Belfast days, I was called out to fly a Britannia non-stop from Brize to Bahrain with a Tyne engine for a Belfast which had lost an engine over Iran on it's way to Bahrain with a Tyne engine for a Belfast which had lost an engine after take-off en-route to Gan. The two broken Tynes, which were too heavy for a Belfast, were loaded onto our Brit overnight and we returned to Brize the next day - feeling very superior!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
When exercise Bersatu Padu was planned in 1970, 72 Sqn was supposed to have ten Wessex at Changi. At one point, as I recall, we had two aircraft flying at Changi, two in a U/S Belfast at Gan, two in a U/S Belfast at Masirah, two in a U/S Belfast at Akrotiti and two in a U/S Belfast at Brize! Luckily, the Communist hordes didn't come down the Malay Peninsular (although what difference our total lift of 120 troops would have made, I don't know).
UWAS Circa 1982..A Belfast parked up somewhere.
Older , dashing , debonair QFI: Look at that bloody awful aeroplane!
Boss: (Growling) I did two tours on those!
Studs: Much sniggering etc...
Older , dashing , debonair QFI: Look at that bloody awful aeroplane!
Boss: (Growling) I did two tours on those!
Studs: Much sniggering etc...
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The Seaford sector, london Airways, (127.7? ), a warm Summer's evening after a hot day, some time in the Seventies.
RAF Belfast, Brize to Akrotiri, after unrestricted climb:
"London, Ascot 1234 is pleased to announce that we are at the FIR Boundary, levelling at Flight Level 150"
Reply: " Congratulations, contact Paris ...etc"
HL
RAF Belfast, Brize to Akrotiri, after unrestricted climb:
"London, Ascot 1234 is pleased to announce that we are at the FIR Boundary, levelling at Flight Level 150"
Reply: " Congratulations, contact Paris ...etc"
HL
Last edited by huntaluvva; 23rd Apr 2012 at 12:41.
Here's a Belfast doing what she was best at, moving outsized, but relatively light loads long distances (in this case transporting an Apache from the UK to the US). She was perfect for the aerospace industry, shifting aero engines, fuselages, wings, helicopters, AOG parts, satellites and the like.
DH
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With regard to the original question, I always understood that the UK was in a spot of financial bother at the time and needed a bail out from the IMF. In order to receive said cash the American Government made it a condition that we buy the Hercules. That meant that we were unable to buy any more Belfasts as well.
Does anyone know if there is any truth in this, or is it just anti IMF /USA propoganda?
Does anyone know if there is any truth in this, or is it just anti IMF /USA propoganda?
IIRC there was a spot of bother in the Netherlands as a result of Lockheed sliding some dosh under the table.
What was surprising was the speed at which the TSR2 jigs were to be destroyed after the F111 purchase.
What was surprising was the speed at which the TSR2 jigs were to be destroyed after the F111 purchase.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Talking of outsized loads, a Heavylift Belfast brought Doug Arnold's Liberator back to the UK from India in 1983 (?) - not sure if it was all in one go or if the fuselage and wings travelled separately. The Lib eventually moved to the US where it now flies regularly.
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In order to receive said cash the American Government made it a condition that we buy the Hercules. That meant that we were unable to buy any more Belfasts as well.
What was surprising was the speed at which the TSR2 jigs were to be destroyed after the F111 purchase.
RR
I think that the timelines are getting a little confused in all of this. The Belfast order was placed in 1960. The RAF C-130s were ordered as a result of the cancellation of the HS681 project in 1965. And the most significant IMF loan needed by the UK that I can recall happened in 1976 - there may have been others but none, I'm sure, that had a bearing on the acquisition of transport aircraft for the RAF.
Belfast Memories
Any military freight transport aircraft that has a spiral staircase to the flight deck just has to have a certain something about it, when added to the Minstrels gallery for conducting the massed choirs down the back and a flight deck big enough for a ballroom,you can understand why they built so many Ocean liners in Belfast. The inability to operate the GPU until the G/E or engineer left the aircraft to open various intakes, outlets and access panels seemed to a bit of a dis-advantage but having only flown fro Brize to Fairford on one they appeared to be a gentlemans aeroplane! And no, it didn't take very long.
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In Sep 73 I climbed into XR 362 at Goose Bay for a ride back to Marham. ...got a balcony seat and had a very comfy ride. 20 years later I got aboard G HLFT at Gdansk for a ride to Stansted. .....made straight for the balcony -GONE!. I guess it was removed along with the refuelling probe to reduce weight. Pity, but all was not lost - we went up on the flight deck and bothered the flight engineer (there was no nav)
I remember the engineer spent a lot of time trying to bring one of the engines into 'synchronisation' - something to do with 'elimination' of an unwelcome resonance. I never quite understood what it was all about - can any take a guess?
I remember the engineer spent a lot of time trying to bring one of the engines into 'synchronisation' - something to do with 'elimination' of an unwelcome resonance. I never quite understood what it was all about - can any take a guess?
The "minstrels gallery" as it was called, was removed from G-HLFT, I think, to enable it to carry sea containers. The Gallery was still fitted to G-BEPS, as was the full sized galley, and the crew rest bunks down below. All in all, a most agreeable way to see the world..........
The APU had a life of its own, and would often spit flames during its alarming start sequence. As has been said, it couldn't be started inflight, thank heavens.
If I remember rightly, the flight deck heating control was in the cargo hold, and the cargo hold ones were in he cockpit?
DH
The APU had a life of its own, and would often spit flames during its alarming start sequence. As has been said, it couldn't be started inflight, thank heavens.
If I remember rightly, the flight deck heating control was in the cargo hold, and the cargo hold ones were in he cockpit?
DH
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s'land: ICM is right. In 1964 Shorts puffed (RB178, precursor of) RB211 on C-141 wings on Belfast's cube. The reason we bought neither that nor more with Tyne was that by then we realised we had overbought our needs...by 10.
fed: TSR.2 jigs, like all detritus in cancellations, were disposed of asap because the contractor has better things to do with the space than to maintain junk safely, while charging us for the pleasure. Junk. See the TSR.2 Cosford RAF Museum; look at the open avionics bay. Shudder. MTBF would have been measured in minutes. 1957 steam was the basis of the design; by 1965 we were onway to k-bytes.
fed: TSR.2 jigs, like all detritus in cancellations, were disposed of asap because the contractor has better things to do with the space than to maintain junk safely, while charging us for the pleasure. Junk. See the TSR.2 Cosford RAF Museum; look at the open avionics bay. Shudder. MTBF would have been measured in minutes. 1957 steam was the basis of the design; by 1965 we were onway to k-bytes.
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More on the engines and performance of the Belfast versus the Cargomaster: the C-133, again according to my Ian Allan "Military aircraft of the world," 1973 edition, had four 7500 shp engines (P and W), a gross weight of 286,000 lb and-not surprisingly-a not very high max speed of only 359 mph. Another case of under-power, I think.
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Air Test
I was an engine fitter on the Belfast 'Major' servicing team based at Abingdon in the early to mid seventies. I remember the aircraft was so big (or the hangar so small) that we had to fit a hydraulic jig to the nose wheel assembly and lift the nose of the aircraft to lower the tail sufficiently to get it into the hangar. At the completion of the Major, an air test was flown to set-up the engine bleed valves and it had to be flown with the cockpit escape hatch open to allow the cables which were bodge taped from each engine, along the wings, down the fuselage and into the cockpit. I was newly out of Brat school and assumed this was normal practice.
I'm not sure if memory serves correctly but I think there was a push at one point to get all ten aircraft airborne for a photo for Flight magazine or the RAF news. Can anyone confirm and if so can anyone post the picture?
I'm not sure if memory serves correctly but I think there was a push at one point to get all ten aircraft airborne for a photo for Flight magazine or the RAF news. Can anyone confirm and if so can anyone post the picture?
True, 53 Squadron did indeed get all ten in the air at the same time for a Christmas card photo (taken from a Britannia I believe). I was at Brize at the time and remember the huge engineering effort that went into getting the whole fleet serviceable, and although I do not have a copy of the photo, it was pretty awful as I recall.