The first autoland in commercial service?
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The first autoland in commercial service?
Airbus Safety First Magazine July 2011, page 26, in an article on autolands by Capt. Christian Norden states:
“On January 9, 1969, the first ever fully-automatic landing of a commercial aircraft with passengers- a French domestic service on a Caravelle III – was conducted in Paris-Orly.”
So it wasn’t the Trident then?
“On January 9, 1969, the first ever fully-automatic landing of a commercial aircraft with passengers- a French domestic service on a Caravelle III – was conducted in Paris-Orly.”
So it wasn’t the Trident then?
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See post#13 on
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/24096...-autoland.html
Britain did it first in 1921
Seriously there's a post in there about the Caravelle landing in CatIIIA conditions
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/24096...-autoland.html
Britain did it first in 1921
Seriously there's a post in there about the Caravelle landing in CatIIIA conditions
More notes about the Caravelle autoland here as well including a link (post 15) to a Flight magazine article of the time.
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...c-landing.html
The Caravelle development team inevitably moved on to the comparable systems on Airbus, via the Dassault Mercure, which was aimed at the same fog-prone routes that those pioneer Air Inter Caravelles were assigned to. The UK Trident team were just allowed to dissipate, but it was the time that Lockheed were developing the Tristar, and I understand some of the key Trident players moved over to this programme in the USA. The Tristar, the first to get FAA autoland certification, is often described as having had an automatic landing capability which has "never been bettered".
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...c-landing.html
The Caravelle development team inevitably moved on to the comparable systems on Airbus, via the Dassault Mercure, which was aimed at the same fog-prone routes that those pioneer Air Inter Caravelles were assigned to. The UK Trident team were just allowed to dissipate, but it was the time that Lockheed were developing the Tristar, and I understand some of the key Trident players moved over to this programme in the USA. The Tristar, the first to get FAA autoland certification, is often described as having had an automatic landing capability which has "never been bettered".
The Caravelle claim quoted above
"On January 9, 1969, the first ever fully-automatic landing of a commercial aircraft with passengers- a French domestic service on a Caravelle III – was conducted in Paris-Orly.”
is misleading. As the other linked thread points out the claim mentions that it was the first in CAT III conditions. BEA Tridents had carried out many automatic landings IN GOOD VISIBILITY before then. So the first autolands in passenger service were with Tridents - but not necessarily in thick fog!
"On January 9, 1969, the first ever fully-automatic landing of a commercial aircraft with passengers- a French domestic service on a Caravelle III – was conducted in Paris-Orly.”
is misleading. As the other linked thread points out the claim mentions that it was the first in CAT III conditions. BEA Tridents had carried out many automatic landings IN GOOD VISIBILITY before then. So the first autolands in passenger service were with Tridents - but not necessarily in thick fog!
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The dreaded four-letter word (first), almost always needs qualification.
Groundloop has the wording correct. If I might clarify:
Caravelle 01 made the first automatic landing on 29 September 1962, thus becoming the first jet airliner in the world to accomplish this feat.
Sud Aviation could offer an automatic approach system to its customers with delivery in the second half of 1963—making the Caravelle the first airliner in the world capable of automatic landings in routine commercial service.
25 September 1964: Caravelle became the first commercial aircraft certified for Cat II minima. French certification (followed by other authorities) restricted automation to 50ft above the threshold, followed by a manual touchdown. Auto-flares could not be made in passenger service, although these were permitted on training flights.
3 March 1964, following ten landings at Bedford and Hatfield with a duplex system, Hawker Siddeley could claim that the Trident had made the first fully automatic landings—made by an airliner designed at the outset for his type of operation. On 10 June 1965, BEA made the world’s first auto-flare in passenger service, when a Trident landed at Heathrow from Paris-Le Bourget (in fair weather).
2 March 1967, the SGAC gave approval for Cat IIIA autoland operations with the Caravelle, the first commercial aircraft in the world to achieve that distinction and, thanks partly to its low wing loading and benign flare attitude, the only one ever certificated to that minima with a single-channel autopilot.
(Another carefully worded ‘first title’ came from Pan American, which claimed the first fully automatic landing in all three axis in scheduled passenger service on 27 February 1967, when a Boeing 727 landed at New York-JFK inbound from Montego Bay. The aircraft was equipped with a duplex system and the ILS was Cat I. At the time, the only airport in the USA with a Cat II ILS was Chicago-O’Hare. This event pipped BEA at the post. On 16 May 1967 a Trident made the type’s first auto-touchdown (with a Smiths duplex system) in passenger service, on a Nice–Heathrow flight.)
and, on 9 January 1969, a Caravelle made the world’s first automatic approach and landing by an air transport aircraft in commercial service and in actual Cat IIIA conditions (RVR 200m, ceiling 20m). On the same day, seven other automatic landings under Cat IIIA conditions were made by Air Inter.
(In comparison, BOAC received Cat II approval in 1969 for the VC10 with the Elliott system. BEA introduced full Cat II operation with the Trident in winter 1970/71; the first Cat III ILS equipment was not installed in the UK until 1968. Approval for Cat IIIA (RVR 200m/DH 12ft) was given to the BEA Trident fleet in 1972. With the Trident, BEA did not achieve Cat IIIB until 1975.)
Hope that helps rather than confuse
Groundloop has the wording correct. If I might clarify:
Caravelle 01 made the first automatic landing on 29 September 1962, thus becoming the first jet airliner in the world to accomplish this feat.
Sud Aviation could offer an automatic approach system to its customers with delivery in the second half of 1963—making the Caravelle the first airliner in the world capable of automatic landings in routine commercial service.
25 September 1964: Caravelle became the first commercial aircraft certified for Cat II minima. French certification (followed by other authorities) restricted automation to 50ft above the threshold, followed by a manual touchdown. Auto-flares could not be made in passenger service, although these were permitted on training flights.
3 March 1964, following ten landings at Bedford and Hatfield with a duplex system, Hawker Siddeley could claim that the Trident had made the first fully automatic landings—made by an airliner designed at the outset for his type of operation. On 10 June 1965, BEA made the world’s first auto-flare in passenger service, when a Trident landed at Heathrow from Paris-Le Bourget (in fair weather).
2 March 1967, the SGAC gave approval for Cat IIIA autoland operations with the Caravelle, the first commercial aircraft in the world to achieve that distinction and, thanks partly to its low wing loading and benign flare attitude, the only one ever certificated to that minima with a single-channel autopilot.
(Another carefully worded ‘first title’ came from Pan American, which claimed the first fully automatic landing in all three axis in scheduled passenger service on 27 February 1967, when a Boeing 727 landed at New York-JFK inbound from Montego Bay. The aircraft was equipped with a duplex system and the ILS was Cat I. At the time, the only airport in the USA with a Cat II ILS was Chicago-O’Hare. This event pipped BEA at the post. On 16 May 1967 a Trident made the type’s first auto-touchdown (with a Smiths duplex system) in passenger service, on a Nice–Heathrow flight.)
and, on 9 January 1969, a Caravelle made the world’s first automatic approach and landing by an air transport aircraft in commercial service and in actual Cat IIIA conditions (RVR 200m, ceiling 20m). On the same day, seven other automatic landings under Cat IIIA conditions were made by Air Inter.
(In comparison, BOAC received Cat II approval in 1969 for the VC10 with the Elliott system. BEA introduced full Cat II operation with the Trident in winter 1970/71; the first Cat III ILS equipment was not installed in the UK until 1968. Approval for Cat IIIA (RVR 200m/DH 12ft) was given to the BEA Trident fleet in 1972. With the Trident, BEA did not achieve Cat IIIB until 1975.)
Hope that helps rather than confuse
Airways Ed.
Re. the single channel Cat IIIA.
I believe that BCAL achieved this certification on the BAC 1-11 just prior to the take over by BA. I think Terry Snow was the avionics wizz who did the work.
Re. the single channel Cat IIIA.
I believe that BCAL achieved this certification on the BAC 1-11 just prior to the take over by BA. I think Terry Snow was the avionics wizz who did the work.
The Tristar, the first to get FAA autoland certification, is often described as having had an automatic landing capability which has "never been bettered".
Known, amongst my then colleagues, as PFM.
Where P=Pure and M=Magic
When carrying out a manual landing, we were encouraged to emulate the automatic technique. Having come from the Viscount whose props were close to the ground and wings were required to be level for touchdown, one had to steel oneself to be close to the ground with a wing seriously down as did the ex B707 guys.
??feet: Last flew it in '87. Could have been about 50 or 100ft.
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I believe that BCAL achieved this certification on the BAC 1-11 just prior to the take over by BA. I think Terry Snow was the avionics wizz who did the work.
It only had a single channel AP. It worked most of the time!!
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Working for Fairey Aviation at the old Heston airport in the 1950's, on one day that we had a dense pea soup fog over the area, and no action at Heathrow, we heard an aircraft take off, make a circuit and land in zero visibility. I heard that it was a fully automated landing. Someone probably has more information on this.
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More to what SGC hinted at:
The late Group Captain Frank C Griffiths DFC AFC, was involved in the development of Blind Landings during the war, and describes much about the systems and how they were tested in his book "Angel Visits" which is worth a read. His other book "Winged Hours" describes his tour as an SOE pilot on 138 Sqn at Tempsford, including his mission where he was shot down and his subsequent escape along the evasion lines back to the UK.
One detail of the early ILS testing was that they had a Boeing B247D, the only one in Europe at the time. It was flapless and had a very low approach angle which allowed it to land without 'flare out'. In testing they found that the Boeing was very placid and reliable and could land automatically under most conditions. One human aspect of this was that none of the pilots who flew the Boeing would not let it land automatically at night without lights - they all switched the lights on at 100 feet or so above the ground.
The late Group Captain Frank C Griffiths DFC AFC, was involved in the development of Blind Landings during the war, and describes much about the systems and how they were tested in his book "Angel Visits" which is worth a read. His other book "Winged Hours" describes his tour as an SOE pilot on 138 Sqn at Tempsford, including his mission where he was shot down and his subsequent escape along the evasion lines back to the UK.
One detail of the early ILS testing was that they had a Boeing B247D, the only one in Europe at the time. It was flapless and had a very low approach angle which allowed it to land without 'flare out'. In testing they found that the Boeing was very placid and reliable and could land automatically under most conditions. One human aspect of this was that none of the pilots who flew the Boeing would not let it land automatically at night without lights - they all switched the lights on at 100 feet or so above the ground.
Having come from the Viscount whose props were close to the ground and wings were required to be level for touchdown,
In fact the controlled-slip X-wind approach so beautifully demonstrated by American autopilots such as Tristar and Boeing 757/67 was perfectly feasible (manually) on the Viscount - with a touchdown bank of no more than a couple of degrees.
Otherwise the regularity achieved on winter Scottish island services would have suffered considerably!
With apologies for thread drift. (No pun intended).
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I think one of the first was the BAC 1-11 prototype G-ASYD which was used for the development of autoland systems at Wisley, although that was not in commercial service, but a sister aircraft may have been at about the same time.
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If you go across to: "Military Aviation" (Page 1), scroll down to: "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII", then to Post #2212 (Page 111), "Padhist"s story may be of interest.
D.
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 21st Feb 2015 at 22:46. Reason: Add Text.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Link add....
If you go across to: "Military Aviation" (Page 1), scroll down to: "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII", then to Post #2212 (Page 111) , "Padhist"s story may be of interest.
D.
If you go across to: "Military Aviation" (Page 1), scroll down to: "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII", then to Post #2212 (Page 111) , "Padhist"s story may be of interest.
D.
