Douglas Boston questions
Douglas Boston questions
My late father in law was trained in night navigation, and posted to Bostons flying days only. Can anyone enlighten me as to the role of the Navigator in RAF Bostons? Was the Navigator also the bomb aimer for example? What was the escape route for the Navigator?
He was shot down at Ostende 1942, and taken POW, this aircraft being Z2249. This very same aircraft became the subject of an Italteri plastic kit and of decal sets. Anyone know of any reason why that particular aircraft came to be the subject for the model?
Any good RAF Boston photos out there to share?
He was shot down at Ostende 1942, and taken POW, this aircraft being Z2249. This very same aircraft became the subject of an Italteri plastic kit and of decal sets. Anyone know of any reason why that particular aircraft came to be the subject for the model?
Any good RAF Boston photos out there to share?
Not too sure of this but I seem to recall that the Boston gets a mention in the long running "Gaining a Pilots Brevet in WW2" thread in Military Aircrew section. I think there was reference to it being a bit of a handful, not just the nosewheel, but partly due to the take over of French orders where the throttle action was reversed (perhaps it was Italian???).
226 Squadron Boston Serial Number: Z2249; Code: MQ-D
Operation: Ostend 27th April 1942
Airborne 1334 Swanton Morley. Shot down by Flak, crashing at Raversijde (West Vlaanderen), 4 km SW of Ostend, where Sgt Handford is buried in the New Communal Cemetery.
F/O W.A. Keech RCAF PoW
Sgt W. Phillips PoW
Sgt D. Handford KIA
F/O W.A. Keech was interned in Camp L3, PoW No.243.
Sgt W. Phillips in Camps L3/L6/357, PoW No.263.
A Donald Duck cartoon character had been painted alongside the aircraft's letter, and a photograph of the crashed Boston appeared in Issue 14 of the German Magazine 'Signal' published in 1943.
It may be that the Donald Duck nose art was one influence on the choice of aircraft, but I suspect some more substantial reasoning may have been involved!
PS: Unfortunately, this also appears to have been 226's first Operational loss.
Is that correct, do you know?
Any further snippets from his memories?
Edit to add: There is a representation of a 226 Sqdn Boston of March '42 here:- WINGS PALETTE - Douglas A-20/DB-7/P-70 Boston/Havoc - Great Britain
226 Squadron Boston Serial Number: Z2249; Code: MQ-D
Operation: Ostend 27th April 1942
Airborne 1334 Swanton Morley. Shot down by Flak, crashing at Raversijde (West Vlaanderen), 4 km SW of Ostend, where Sgt Handford is buried in the New Communal Cemetery.
F/O W.A. Keech RCAF PoW
Sgt W. Phillips PoW
Sgt D. Handford KIA
F/O W.A. Keech was interned in Camp L3, PoW No.243.
Sgt W. Phillips in Camps L3/L6/357, PoW No.263.
A Donald Duck cartoon character had been painted alongside the aircraft's letter, and a photograph of the crashed Boston appeared in Issue 14 of the German Magazine 'Signal' published in 1943.
It may be that the Donald Duck nose art was one influence on the choice of aircraft, but I suspect some more substantial reasoning may have been involved!
PS: Unfortunately, this also appears to have been 226's first Operational loss.
Is that correct, do you know?
Any further snippets from his memories?
Edit to add: There is a representation of a 226 Sqdn Boston of March '42 here:- WINGS PALETTE - Douglas A-20/DB-7/P-70 Boston/Havoc - Great Britain
Last edited by Icare9; 15th Feb 2010 at 09:10.
Was the Navigator also the bomb aimer
What was the escape route for the Navigator?
Last edited by Noyade; 16th Feb 2010 at 05:37. Reason: Better images.
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Douglas Boston III, AL721 RH T of 88 Sqn. RAF, May 1942.
Boston III, W8268 TH "O" for Ottawa Ontario. Although on RAF strength, aircraft was operated by RCAF 418 (Intruder) Sqn. Note the exhaust-dampers for night ops. Lost over Holland 20 May, 1942.
Boston III, W8268 TH "O" for Ottawa Ontario. Although on RAF strength, aircraft was operated by RCAF 418 (Intruder) Sqn. Note the exhaust-dampers for night ops. Lost over Holland 20 May, 1942.
Last edited by evansb; 16th Feb 2010 at 00:16.
Steve, what an opportunity!
I suppose I want to know about the work of the Nav. in the RAF Boston. Much has been written (and read by me) about night heavy bombers in the RAF, the problems of finding the target, pathfinders etc, but I am ignorant of how the Boston (and other day bombers) worked. Altitude for cruise to target, bombing heights etc etc.
Noyade, thanks for that diagram, makes it very clear.
Icare9, sadly I don't really know any more.
I suppose I want to know about the work of the Nav. in the RAF Boston. Much has been written (and read by me) about night heavy bombers in the RAF, the problems of finding the target, pathfinders etc, but I am ignorant of how the Boston (and other day bombers) worked. Altitude for cruise to target, bombing heights etc etc.
Noyade, thanks for that diagram, makes it very clear.
Icare9, sadly I don't really know any more.
I saw them both yesterday and handed them printouts of this thread. I will be seeing them again on Sunday 28th, and they have both promised to come armed with answers!
Steve,
how did you get on with the Boston veterans?
Hate to see this thread go cold.
Found a good group on Flickr: lots of pictures!
Flickr: Douglas A-20 'Havoc'
(copy and paste into your browser, I can't remember how to insert links)
how did you get on with the Boston veterans?
Hate to see this thread go cold.
Found a good group on Flickr: lots of pictures!
Flickr: Douglas A-20 'Havoc'
(copy and paste into your browser, I can't remember how to insert links)
On the day we were due to meet, the guy with all the answers was unable to get his car out because of floods, so I am now hoping to see him on Wednesday 17th. I haven't forgotten and neither has he.
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Boston/Havocs
During WW11 I grew up within a mile of RAF Hunsdon Herts which had Boston & Hovocs based there, & as a young boy used to cycle there to see these delightful A/C taxi - take-off & land.
Mostly we were chased away by the perimeter guards, but we moved somewhere else & came back later.
Some of the Havocs had the 'Turbinlite' airborne searchlights & on one occasion I saw one light up the sky -- what a thrill that was
I saw many exciting low level flights -- flying between trees at about 50ft etc -- also saw many crashed A/C being taken away on 'Queen - mary' low level recovery vehicles , & lorries carrying coffins with the Union Jack drapped over them.
For youngsters like myself they were exciting times, --- little knowing what a serious position we were in at that time.
Dusty
Mostly we were chased away by the perimeter guards, but we moved somewhere else & came back later.
Some of the Havocs had the 'Turbinlite' airborne searchlights & on one occasion I saw one light up the sky -- what a thrill that was
I saw many exciting low level flights -- flying between trees at about 50ft etc -- also saw many crashed A/C being taken away on 'Queen - mary' low level recovery vehicles , & lorries carrying coffins with the Union Jack drapped over them.
For youngsters like myself they were exciting times, --- little knowing what a serious position we were in at that time.
Dusty
I have finally had a response from one of my Boston crew friends as follows:
"I did my navigation training in Southern Rhodesia where we were designated Nav.B (i.e. Navigator/Bomb Aimer). On passing out we were awarded the O Observer brevet. Having done OTU on Baltimores at Giancalis, Egypt we were subsequently posted to Italy where I joined 13 Squadron. In late 1944 they were in process of converting from Baltimores to Bostons. We flew operationally in Boston IVs and Vs and yes, Navs also did the bomb aiming. Our role in Italy was night armed recce. 13 squadron was part of 232 Wing comprising 18, 55 and 114 Squadrons. Following the end of hostilities in Italy 232 Wing (still with Bostons) was posted to Greece and based at Hassani (Athens).
Entry and egress was via a hatch in front of the nose. Being a single seat cockpit, the pilot's "dual" position was lying flat in the empty dinghy space overlooking the cockpit, i.e. when learning the drill at conversion. It will be noted that in the later marks the nav's compartment was all clear and unimpeded perspex.
The least enviable position was the W/Op, somewhat cramped and looking over the back hatch. The nav had a very good view of everything. We were a crew of four; pilot, nav, W/Op and top gunner. Navs were later advised to change the O brevet to N."
Eric Burke."
Eric also sent me some photos of his aircraft and crews, but I cannot see how to attach them here.
Steve Bond
"I did my navigation training in Southern Rhodesia where we were designated Nav.B (i.e. Navigator/Bomb Aimer). On passing out we were awarded the O Observer brevet. Having done OTU on Baltimores at Giancalis, Egypt we were subsequently posted to Italy where I joined 13 Squadron. In late 1944 they were in process of converting from Baltimores to Bostons. We flew operationally in Boston IVs and Vs and yes, Navs also did the bomb aiming. Our role in Italy was night armed recce. 13 squadron was part of 232 Wing comprising 18, 55 and 114 Squadrons. Following the end of hostilities in Italy 232 Wing (still with Bostons) was posted to Greece and based at Hassani (Athens).
Entry and egress was via a hatch in front of the nose. Being a single seat cockpit, the pilot's "dual" position was lying flat in the empty dinghy space overlooking the cockpit, i.e. when learning the drill at conversion. It will be noted that in the later marks the nav's compartment was all clear and unimpeded perspex.
The least enviable position was the W/Op, somewhat cramped and looking over the back hatch. The nav had a very good view of everything. We were a crew of four; pilot, nav, W/Op and top gunner. Navs were later advised to change the O brevet to N."
Eric Burke."
Eric also sent me some photos of his aircraft and crews, but I cannot see how to attach them here.
Steve Bond
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Bill Keech
Bill Keech became a prominent physician and local politician here in North Bay, Ontario. He had a number of large scars on his face as a result of the crash. Sadly, he passed away a number of years ago.Cheers...Chris
Steve, thank you for posting Eric's info. I am grateful in particular for the confirmation that the Navigator was also the Bombardier. Together with the pics. posted earlier I am getting a clearer picture.
I understand that an A20 has been acquired for the RAF museum. Wasn't there a Boston nose/cockpit somewhere? Would be great if that could be displayed alongside the A20, especially if it had all of the fixtures and fittings.
I understand that an A20 has been acquired for the RAF museum. Wasn't there a Boston nose/cockpit somewhere? Would be great if that could be displayed alongside the A20, especially if it had all of the fixtures and fittings.
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Goodafternoon Steve,
My father flew with 13 squadron on Bostons in Italy up to the end of the war.
I was wondering if you could ask Eric if he knew him?
His name was John Hardie and he was a pilot. He had his 21st birthday while training in the desert before going on to ops in Italy.
It would be interesting to know if Eric knew him.
I look forward to hearing from you,
John Hardie (jnr)
My father flew with 13 squadron on Bostons in Italy up to the end of the war.
I was wondering if you could ask Eric if he knew him?
His name was John Hardie and he was a pilot. He had his 21st birthday while training in the desert before going on to ops in Italy.
It would be interesting to know if Eric knew him.
I look forward to hearing from you,
John Hardie (jnr)
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John Hardie
Hi Steve,
thanks for your reply,
His nick name was "Andy" when he was in the airforce, after an actor at the time Andy Hardie (or Hardy) not sure of the spelling. He was also known as "Kiss me" not that I would have dared!
If I get a chance I will look up in his log book and find the crew names also.
After the war he returned to Australia for a short time, then returned to the UK as he had tried uni and I think it was a bit to different to what he had been doing for the past 3 or 4 years! He through a family contact got a job with a shipping company in London. He joined 601 auxillary airforce squadron and was flying Spitfires, then onto Vampires and Meteors.
If you look on the web site for the 601 recreation and look in Tom Molsons photo's, in the squadron shots he is the one in the Australian uniform and it is noticably darker than the English ones.
As he said his uniform was perfectly servicable and he couldn't afford a new one anyway!
He became great friends with Hugh Dundas (Cocky) and many others as well, and was there from 1947 till 1953 when he then returned to Australia.
I look forward to hearing from you again,
Cheers,
John.
thanks for your reply,
His nick name was "Andy" when he was in the airforce, after an actor at the time Andy Hardie (or Hardy) not sure of the spelling. He was also known as "Kiss me" not that I would have dared!
If I get a chance I will look up in his log book and find the crew names also.
After the war he returned to Australia for a short time, then returned to the UK as he had tried uni and I think it was a bit to different to what he had been doing for the past 3 or 4 years! He through a family contact got a job with a shipping company in London. He joined 601 auxillary airforce squadron and was flying Spitfires, then onto Vampires and Meteors.
If you look on the web site for the 601 recreation and look in Tom Molsons photo's, in the squadron shots he is the one in the Australian uniform and it is noticably darker than the English ones.
As he said his uniform was perfectly servicable and he couldn't afford a new one anyway!
He became great friends with Hugh Dundas (Cocky) and many others as well, and was there from 1947 till 1953 when he then returned to Australia.
I look forward to hearing from you again,
Cheers,
John.
