What Became of the Last Mustard Gas Delivered to the RAF
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[/QUOTE] see that there was a 1,000-lb "N" cluster scheduled for bomb ballistic trials at Woomera in 1955. Contained 52 x 10-lb bomblets. Apparently an alternative to the 1,000-lb "N" bomb. I'm sure I've also seen this weapon referred to as the "Toxic bomb" - I suspected an Anthrax bomb. But maybe the same weapon you refer to ?
Do you know whether they actually produced the 10,000 bomb casings ? I've seen huge orders for other bombs in same period and most ended up being cancelled before production.[QUOTE]
Your "N" cluster bombs were almost certainly Anthrax. The standard bomblet was 4-lb but I will check on 10-lb also.
Anthrax bombs were tested live at Gruinard and Penclawdd in 1942/43. There was a further test at Shingle Street by Porton Down in March 1943 but they state that Wintergreen was used instead of Mustard/Anthrax. There is doubt concerning this and the Shingle Street file is closed until 2013?.
There were definitely 12,000 plus 1,000 -lb mustard gas bombs manufactured and charged at Randle in 1955. 2,000 of them were shipped to Norton Disney and the remaining ones stored in the K buildings at Randle.
It is most exciting to find someone actually was aware of a practical "Toxic Bomb" in the field.
Do you know whether they actually produced the 10,000 bomb casings ? I've seen huge orders for other bombs in same period and most ended up being cancelled before production.[QUOTE]
Your "N" cluster bombs were almost certainly Anthrax. The standard bomblet was 4-lb but I will check on 10-lb also.
Anthrax bombs were tested live at Gruinard and Penclawdd in 1942/43. There was a further test at Shingle Street by Porton Down in March 1943 but they state that Wintergreen was used instead of Mustard/Anthrax. There is doubt concerning this and the Shingle Street file is closed until 2013?.
There were definitely 12,000 plus 1,000 -lb mustard gas bombs manufactured and charged at Randle in 1955. 2,000 of them were shipped to Norton Disney and the remaining ones stored in the K buildings at Randle.
It is most exciting to find someone actually was aware of a practical "Toxic Bomb" in the field.
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some was buried under the CRABTREE FARM ESTATE-BULWELL-NOTTINGHAM.
the leakage of gas over the years has killed off ALL intelligent life!!!!
well, its as good a theory as any
the leakage of gas over the years has killed off ALL intelligent life!!!!
well, its as good a theory as any
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N Bombs Yested at Woomera
Redsetter,
Could you expand on the above? Were you involved and if so in what role? Did the tests take place and to what result?
I can assure you that the poor sheep who were used in other trials were all destroyed even if they survived the trials. See below
YouTube - Gruinard Island
Could you expand on the above? Were you involved and if so in what role? Did the tests take place and to what result?
I can assure you that the poor sheep who were used in other trials were all destroyed even if they survived the trials. See below
YouTube - Gruinard Island
Colin,
no not involved. I came across the reference in avia13/1239 at TNA. The ballistics trials at Woomera were to prove/calculate the ballistic properties of the RAF's inventory of air-dropped weapons. So "N" bomb drops would be inert. I don't know whether the "N" bombs ever entered service. I did wonder if interest in the Large Area Coverage concept (spraying the stuff from aircraft/ships) put the kibosh on bombs (which had rather limited cover in comparison). But I've never really gone into the subject in any detail.
rs
no not involved. I came across the reference in avia13/1239 at TNA. The ballistics trials at Woomera were to prove/calculate the ballistic properties of the RAF's inventory of air-dropped weapons. So "N" bomb drops would be inert. I don't know whether the "N" bombs ever entered service. I did wonder if interest in the Large Area Coverage concept (spraying the stuff from aircraft/ships) put the kibosh on bombs (which had rather limited cover in comparison). But I've never really gone into the subject in any detail.
rs
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rs,
I have received from another source the following interesting and informative input
Colin
I have received from another source the following interesting and informative input
In my very early RAF days I was an Armament Fitter at Gaydon which, apart from Victor/Valiant aircrew training had a nuclear role and we routinely practiced with these loads both in inert and live form. However, all publications relating to these and much of the airborne equipment were classified as SECRET or above and seen only our leaders. But, the then current nuclear bomb (Blue Danube) was covered by an inclusion in a RESTRICTED Air Publication as Bomb HE, Medium Capacity, 10,000-lb.
If there was - in the RAF inventory - a 1000 lb 'N' Bomb containing a chemical agent then I expect that too would have been classified SECRET and the technical documents given limited distribution to potential users but a 'cover' bomb described in an AP with a lower security classification.
Redsetter is mentioning two classes of Bomb. A 1000 lb 'N'' (original) - probably the new design casings filled at Randle and - secondly - a Cluster version to supercede the original.
I can't see HMG going to the trouble of designing, manufacturing, testing and filling just to supply an overseas order although - if subsequent HMG policy became no CW - they may have considered selling them on.
I think it more likely that they were intended for HMG use and that when the perceived 'need' passed that they were secretly disposed of and the documents destroyed or sanitized.
If there was - in the RAF inventory - a 1000 lb 'N' Bomb containing a chemical agent then I expect that too would have been classified SECRET and the technical documents given limited distribution to potential users but a 'cover' bomb described in an AP with a lower security classification.
Redsetter is mentioning two classes of Bomb. A 1000 lb 'N'' (original) - probably the new design casings filled at Randle and - secondly - a Cluster version to supercede the original.
I can't see HMG going to the trouble of designing, manufacturing, testing and filling just to supply an overseas order although - if subsequent HMG policy became no CW - they may have considered selling them on.
I think it more likely that they were intended for HMG use and that when the perceived 'need' passed that they were secretly disposed of and the documents destroyed or sanitized.
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Have been reading you information with interest I worked at Bowes Moor and Barnham recovering shells in the 1990's. I received a lung full of Mustard from a shell at Bowes and I know of atleast 2 people who had mustard burns from Barnham!
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Mustard Gas
Not sure if connected but . . .
During the early - mid eighties my brother (based at Swinderby at the time) mentioned that "Specialist Teams" has just completed the last ever check of the former munitions storage site just down the (old) A46 at RAF Norton Disney and that gas bomb stocks HAD been stored there during WWII . . .
Tony H
During the early - mid eighties my brother (based at Swinderby at the time) mentioned that "Specialist Teams" has just completed the last ever check of the former munitions storage site just down the (old) A46 at RAF Norton Disney and that gas bomb stocks HAD been stored there during WWII . . .
Tony H
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Please contact me
Would either of the two previous commentators please contact me?
They have information we need and we have information which may interest them.
They have information we need and we have information which may interest them.
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From the obituary of a friend, by Richard D North in The Independent, 31 Dec 2007.
" But it is hard to deny that he lived for his dangerous work. In 1989, he was appointed MBE for (his family guessed) his work in disposing of a dangerous cache of First World War mustard gas found at Bramley, the old Army School of Ammunition near Basingstoke."
"Towards the end of his service, it was clear to him that an EOD specialist needed to understand every kind of "dirty" bomb, whether chemical, biological or nuclear."
" But it is hard to deny that he lived for his dangerous work. In 1989, he was appointed MBE for (his family guessed) his work in disposing of a dangerous cache of First World War mustard gas found at Bramley, the old Army School of Ammunition near Basingstoke."
"Towards the end of his service, it was clear to him that an EOD specialist needed to understand every kind of "dirty" bomb, whether chemical, biological or nuclear."
I believe that a lot of unused explosives (incl gas) was dumped in the BEAUFORT TRENCH which isin the Irish Sea between Larne and Stranrare (excuse the spelling) ???
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Amongst our Souvenirs
The Beaufort Deep or Trench is located in the Irish Sea. There was extensive dumping of all kinds of munitions and waste there in the immediate post-war period. It was also the final destination of three hulks which were packed with 70,000 German 250 Kg Tabun nerve gas bombs in the mid 1950s. The ships were sailed/towed from the military port of Cairnryan and scuttled over the Deep.
In 1946/7 25,000 52 gallon drums of poor quality mustard gas were transported from Barry Docks and dumped in the Hurd Deep north of the Channel Islands
In 1946/7 25,000 52 gallon drums of poor quality mustard gas were transported from Barry Docks and dumped in the Hurd Deep north of the Channel Islands
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Further Riddles
It now appears that we manufactured mustard gas for the Americans, who designed the rail containers for its shipment. The mustard was paid by Reverse Lease Lend.
So, the question is who did the mustard gas converted into circa 10,000 one thousand bombs in 1953 belong to?
So, the question is who did the mustard gas converted into circa 10,000 one thousand bombs in 1953 belong to?
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Almost one year later I have read a file which may may be of relevance. It appears that in the late 1940s we decided to create a strategic reserve of chemical weapons consisting of 10,000 newly manufactured E2 bombs weighing 1,000 lb loaded weight.
Some of the older bombs would not fit in the Canberra and other jets due to misplaced shackles and shapes. The fillings for these units would be phosgene and mustard gas decanted from older weapons which would be dumped.
It was also intended to use the Tabun nerve gas standing in 250Kg bombs which we inherited from the Germans at the end of WW11. These were standing on the runway at RAF Llandwrog. They were unusable because the shackles were not compatible with British aircraft without converting them at an estimated cost of £2,460,000.
It was decided to leave them in the current German bombs as storage until needed to be decanted into the new E2 bombs.
Some of the older bombs would not fit in the Canberra and other jets due to misplaced shackles and shapes. The fillings for these units would be phosgene and mustard gas decanted from older weapons which would be dumped.
It was also intended to use the Tabun nerve gas standing in 250Kg bombs which we inherited from the Germans at the end of WW11. These were standing on the runway at RAF Llandwrog. They were unusable because the shackles were not compatible with British aircraft without converting them at an estimated cost of £2,460,000.
It was decided to leave them in the current German bombs as storage until needed to be decanted into the new E2 bombs.
Last edited by ColinB; 29th Jan 2012 at 19:18. Reason: typo
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I have been on many forums recently where without fail it is stated with certainty that mustard gas was stored or obtained from RAF Norton Disney in Lincolnshire. I was a bomb armourer at Norton Disney for two years 1951-53 and have to say that in that time I never saw any sign or heard any mention of chemical warfare. Norton Disney was a small bomb dump with plenty of heavy ordinance in various bomb bays..we had a fairly large danger area where bombs were kept and lock up sheds for ammunition of all kinds including quite a lots of 20mm aircraft cannon shells.
We had prisoners from Lincoln jail who came to camp daily to cut the grass, sweep the pathways and empty dustbins etc...all of course the right side of the danger area!! I cannot imagine they would have been allowed anywhere near the place if gas was on the site. I have seen other reports that two potholes were sunk into the ground and filled with mustard gas and then sealed. I read also that a pit was dug out and anderson shelter sides were placed in upside down the base concreted over and that too was sealed!! I am at a loss to understand all this...how long was the gas expected to be there? We did have railway sidings into the camp and would often prepare ordinance to be shipped out...........we did at one time get 2000 aircraft torpedos serviced and loaded onto to British Rail wagons..............these were for Selta in Hong Kong.
We would go at least three times a week to Spalford and in the deep sand pits would burn small arms ammunition in 5000 lb bomb rings five high...primed incendiaries in the bottom and bucket fulls of the ammo on top of them, covered over with steel sheets sandbaged down,they would burn for two or three hours and make a lot of noise!! We would destroy the 20 mm ammunition stacking the cases of 50 rounds nose down in the sand four high, with plastic explosive and detonators...these would make a big bang and send it all up in the air. We also had a team daily to RAF Fulbeck which was a disused airbase.
We never at any time were warned that mustard gas was about. On the subject of transporting the gas, I wonder would it be possible to use 1000lb practice bombs? We had a lot of these at Norton Disney all painted white to show they contained no explosive..would these be suitable to fill and transport by train to the docks? Could the gas have been put there after I left in August 1953? Also can anyone say when all the ordinance was removed from Norton Disney, I assume it is all at the bottom of the Atlantic!! I went back to see what had happened at Norton Disney in 1960 and all I could find were the ruins of the cookhouse.....the four billets had all gone but the footings were still there.......the CO,s house at the camp entrance was now the home of the local gamekeeper..................it all looked very sad.
So is there anyone out there about my age who can tell me what happened to it all?....I am now almost eighty years old and a Suez Veteran, and always wondering how they organised the removal of all those bombs and where they went to.
We had prisoners from Lincoln jail who came to camp daily to cut the grass, sweep the pathways and empty dustbins etc...all of course the right side of the danger area!! I cannot imagine they would have been allowed anywhere near the place if gas was on the site. I have seen other reports that two potholes were sunk into the ground and filled with mustard gas and then sealed. I read also that a pit was dug out and anderson shelter sides were placed in upside down the base concreted over and that too was sealed!! I am at a loss to understand all this...how long was the gas expected to be there? We did have railway sidings into the camp and would often prepare ordinance to be shipped out...........we did at one time get 2000 aircraft torpedos serviced and loaded onto to British Rail wagons..............these were for Selta in Hong Kong.
We would go at least three times a week to Spalford and in the deep sand pits would burn small arms ammunition in 5000 lb bomb rings five high...primed incendiaries in the bottom and bucket fulls of the ammo on top of them, covered over with steel sheets sandbaged down,they would burn for two or three hours and make a lot of noise!! We would destroy the 20 mm ammunition stacking the cases of 50 rounds nose down in the sand four high, with plastic explosive and detonators...these would make a big bang and send it all up in the air. We also had a team daily to RAF Fulbeck which was a disused airbase.
We never at any time were warned that mustard gas was about. On the subject of transporting the gas, I wonder would it be possible to use 1000lb practice bombs? We had a lot of these at Norton Disney all painted white to show they contained no explosive..would these be suitable to fill and transport by train to the docks? Could the gas have been put there after I left in August 1953? Also can anyone say when all the ordinance was removed from Norton Disney, I assume it is all at the bottom of the Atlantic!! I went back to see what had happened at Norton Disney in 1960 and all I could find were the ruins of the cookhouse.....the four billets had all gone but the footings were still there.......the CO,s house at the camp entrance was now the home of the local gamekeeper..................it all looked very sad.
So is there anyone out there about my age who can tell me what happened to it all?....I am now almost eighty years old and a Suez Veteran, and always wondering how they organised the removal of all those bombs and where they went to.
Interested in the mention of Fulbeck - it was used by Cranwell as an RLG and I flew my first JP solo there in 1964. I believe that in the late 50s there were historic aircraft in the hangars (used in the flim "High Flight"), but what else was there - did we risk huge explosions if we had crashed into the "wrong" hangar?
Last edited by Wander00; 17th Nov 2012 at 17:51.
This is very interesting and I'm sorry I can't contribute anything other than a question - if the invasion beeches had been bombed as suggested, would there have been massive civilian casualties? It would have been particularly bad in Dover, I guess?
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The 10.000 mustard gas bombs and 2,000 inert ones is such a precise amount that I wonder if perhaps they were for an overseas order.
In the mid-1950s I can think of many potential customers but a total of 12,000 bombs would by standards have had to have been moved initially by rail.
We can trace most of the mustard ever made in the UK and its eventual destruction but to lose 12,000 bombs is a big hole in our calculations. Someone out there must have knowledge of them.
It appears that at the end of WWII it was decided to retain a strategic reserve of Chemical Weapons. The scale of holding being one third of that held at the end of WWII but because of the wastage in stocks, primarily because of the fragility of the 65lb weapon, it was necessary to manufacture new bombs with mustard being held in FFD tanks. This was Operations Pepper Pot and Spring Onion and took place in 1953/54.
I still do not know the eventual fate of these munitions.
In the mid-1950s I can think of many potential customers but a total of 12,000 bombs would by standards have had to have been moved initially by rail.
We can trace most of the mustard ever made in the UK and its eventual destruction but to lose 12,000 bombs is a big hole in our calculations. Someone out there must have knowledge of them.
It appears that at the end of WWII it was decided to retain a strategic reserve of Chemical Weapons. The scale of holding being one third of that held at the end of WWII but because of the wastage in stocks, primarily because of the fragility of the 65lb weapon, it was necessary to manufacture new bombs with mustard being held in FFD tanks. This was Operations Pepper Pot and Spring Onion and took place in 1953/54.
I still do not know the eventual fate of these munitions.
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As an aside to the thread, in my attic there are probably the artillery manuals issued in around 1960 (perhaps earlier) from which we were taught how to plan and fire the Chemical shells that we, ummm, didn't have, as well as the manuals for the 8" Howitzer nuclear shells, and free-flight self-propelled missiles with nuclear warheads, that we did have. Both these were tactical rather than strategic weapons, deployed in West Germany for use when needed.
A 5KT shell/warhead would be quite useful against ISIS, I would think, if a bit of collateral is acceptable. 3rd degree burns within 1500m (airburst), plus a bit of residual radiation/fallout, should keep them quiet for a bit. Just sayin'.
Not a lot of people know that overpressure of 150 psi is required to kill the average human; the good news is that, from my notes, this overpressure does not occur with nuclear warheads except at a distance from GZ at which death will result from other effects.
So that's alright, then, apart from the secondary effect of being killed by or injured by being blown about or hit by falling masonry, which can happen with overpressure of as little as 7 psi. Amazing, eh?
A 5KT shell/warhead would be quite useful against ISIS, I would think, if a bit of collateral is acceptable. 3rd degree burns within 1500m (airburst), plus a bit of residual radiation/fallout, should keep them quiet for a bit. Just sayin'.
Not a lot of people know that overpressure of 150 psi is required to kill the average human; the good news is that, from my notes, this overpressure does not occur with nuclear warheads except at a distance from GZ at which death will result from other effects.
So that's alright, then, apart from the secondary effect of being killed by or injured by being blown about or hit by falling masonry, which can happen with overpressure of as little as 7 psi. Amazing, eh?