Mosquito "Resin Lamps"

[zotbox]

I am trying establish the purpose and operation of the "Resin Lamps" seen on the trailing edge of the Mosquito wing tips, just outboard of the ailerons.
There is also a possibility that such devices were found on the trailing edge of the Lancaster wing tips as well.

There is a suggestion that these lamps were designed to operate in the Infra-red spectrum as some form of IFF system.

I can find no reference to any system employed for the detection or interrogation of IR lamps in any of my books or on the WWW on this subject (Including "Most secret war" by RV Jones) and wonder if the existence of the system has been forgotten over time, perhaps due to the sensitive classification of such a device, or if these lamps were simply some form of low intensity formation lamp and unremarkable in their use.

A "resin lamp" switch is also located in the cockpit of the Hawker Tempest II as can be seen in this diagram (figure 3, item 70) The Hawker Tempest Page

Can any Ppruners shed any (cough) light on this subject?

[deltayankee]

As I understand it the lights pointing backwards are for formation flying -- they should be visible only to aircraft just behind and avoid accidental rear ending.

Sometimes you see other narrow angle lights pointing downwards and in this case the purpose is IFF. They would be turned on over friendly territory so that people directly underneath would not shoot at you.

[forget]

Here.

Resin Lights and Mosquito - Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

PS. See Post #18 here. Infra-red.

Hawker Typhoon Mk. 1 B - Britmodeller.com

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

For what it's worth, the 2 formation lights I have in one of my bits boxes have narrow angle blue lenses.

[zotbox]

"For what it's worth, the 2 formation lights I have in one of my bits boxes have narrow angle blue lenses. "

That is of interest GBZ, Are those parts from a Mosquito?

I have seen a picture of a "Resin Lamp" installed on a Mosquito and it has a red lense.
A blue lense suggests that these items may have configured as navigation lights port and starboard.

I suppose the question I am really asking is: Was "resin" a code word for airborne Infra-red technologies during World War 2?

(And Forget has identified the thread on Britmodeller that started this quest!)

Thanks for your responses

[18-Wheeler]

I can find no reference to any system employed for the detection or interrogation of IR lamps in any of my books or on the WWW on this subject (Including "Most secret war" by RV Jones) and wonder if the existence of the system has been forgotten over time, perhaps due to the sensitive classification of such a device, or if these lamps were simply some form of low intensity formation lamp and unremarkable in their use.

Don't quote me but AFAIK IR gear first appeared in the Vietnam war.

[deltayankee]

All the WW2 stories I have read talk about blue formation lights, so it appears to be a standard. These were clearly standard visible light devices and not infra red.

I have never heard the term resin used as a code word for anything but this means nothing since secret things are secret.

To give one example of a story mentioning the blue formation lights see Military.com Content.

[zotbox]

18 Wheeler- thanks for your response- there were several IR detection and sighting systems in use by all sides during WW2, including the German "Kiel-Gerat" and "Spanner" systems, development of which had preceded the war by some margin.

Indeed RV jones himself carried out the first airborne interception of an aircraft using an IR detector of his own design from Farnborough in 1937.

The blue formation lights mentioned by DY are another possible explanation for these "Resin Lamps"

[Yellow Sun]

IIRC There was a Resin Light switch on the Varsity but I am not sure that any were actually fitted. There was certainly a Downward Ident light and that was used. Part of the night Radio Failure procedure was to flash "R" on it when joining the circuit.

YS

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

zotbox. I'm sure Dad said they were acquired from an Anson. Whether or not they were standard, I don't know but, at Woodford, they used to have all sorts of weird and wonderful things over at Flight Sheds.

If I had time I would go up in the roof and photograph them but I'd have to find the right box first!

[zotbox]

Thanks for all the responses, and thanks for the mentions of the Varsity and Anson, looks like these "Resin Lamps" where fairly commonplace.

I suspect that they are indeed some form of formation light but I will keep looking for the definitive answer.

Thanks again everyone.

[18-Wheeler]

Ah thanks very much, Zotbox, I never had any idea such gear was being developed so early.

[avionic type]

they were fitted to most bombers and fighters built in the latter part of WW2 they were on most early Meteor and Vampires plus Lancs and Halifaxes but ceased to be fitted after that time on new airplanes as has been said before they assisted in formation flying in wartime as they could not be seen from the ground

[deltayankee]

The plot thickens...

I've mentioned this question to quite a few people and most of them have no idea or talk about rear-facing blue formation lights. One or two, though, have recollections that opaque white lights were indeed part of an infrared IFF system.

Nobody knows exactly how it worked and my friend Google is silent on the matter. I couldn't imagine them using an IR light in the unidentified aircraft and making the nightfighter crews wear IR goggles but apparently it did not work this way.

The most credible suggestion so far is that the nightfighter shone an infraded searchlight at the unidentified aircraft. This would be detected by the "resin lamps" which would then light up. These days you can buy systems based on a similar principle for infantry IFF. RV Jones never mentioned any such system but then maybe he was not told about it.

Your question reminds me that Google is very efficient for new stuff but most of the paper in the world is not in any searchable form. WW2 stories also tend to be useless sources for some systems simply because the pilots were never told the truth about the equipment in their aircraft so their memoirs are no help.

So it seems that the Mosquito quite likely had both formation lights and IR resin lights.

[Fareastdriver]

they were fitted to most bombers and fighters built in the latter part of WW2 they were on most early Meteor and Vampires plus Lancs and Halifaxes but ceased to be fitted after that time on new airplanes

The Puma HC1 which entered service in 1971 had blue formation lights fitted. One on top of each sponson and one on the doghouse. Flying formation at night with just the blue lights wasn't the most comforting of occupations but improved with NGVs as you could look down the exhaust shroud and see the power turbine lit up.

I don't know if they still have them. I hope not, it was ruddy dangerous.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Might be worth you posting a query on the ''Gaining an RAF pilot's brevet in ww2'' in the Mil forum, there's a guy ''Regle'' who flew mossies and heavies & instructed.

Sure he'd have an idea

[zotbox]

Thanks for all the replies!
It is a rather interesting conundrum, and as Delta-Yankee mentions google will only get you so far with this type of "before internet" question.
Unless someone has transcribed original documents across to the WWW the truth is probably in a box file at Kew or somewhere.
I agree with DY's analysis of how such a system might work, and although I can find photographs of German aircraft with IR sights on them, I can find none of so equipped allied aircraft. (Turbinlight being the only forward facing search light that I am aware of being used operationally, not counting the camouflage experiments I have read of)

I also wonder how long it would have taken the Germans to discover the nature of these lamps and exploit them, as they did with so much of the Allied airborne technology (and vice versa)- and whether this IR arms race would be known to modern historians

There does seem to be some basis to this rumour and I will have a mosey across to the mil forum and look up this Regle fella. (Thanks Tyres)

(they can be a bit rough over there though so I will tread carefully!)

On the subject of Blue formation lights, The Tornado F3 had them on the wings out near the trailing edge of the tips, the lenses were always cracking on them though so we seldom saw them used. If the Puma sported them as well it must have been the European equivalent to the American "Slime lights" or Low Intensity formation lights that abound these days.

[deltayankee]

although I can find photographs of German aircraft with IR sights on them, I can find none of so equipped allied aircraft.

Classic problem with secret kit. At the time it is secret no pictures are released. Aircraft surplus to requirement are carefully sanitized before ending up in civilian hands and by the time the need for secrecy has passed everyone has forgotten.

Yes, the solution lies probably in some dusty files unless you are lucky enough to find someone who worked on the system. Good luck with the search!

[cliffnemo]

Resin Lamps

Hi ZOTBOX, I read you query on my thread. Bearing in mind my memory ain't what it used to be. I don't think there was a resin lamp switch on our Lancasters on 150 Sqdn, and we had to draw and memorize every panel whilst at R.A.F St , Athan school of engineering , and can't remember any. However I have a friend, a Halton Apprentice and pilot (1938- 1950 ?) who was in charge of the Elvington Halifax bomber reconstruction. Will contact him, if he doesn't know, I would be very surprised .

[chevvron]

RAF Hercules in the '80s had them too.