swordfish
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Could anyone help me out please with my research. Were their any TAGs airborne on the raid on Taranto?? Also could the Observer of the Swordfish send/receive Morse. What was the max T/X and R/X Range of the Equipment used. Thank You
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Swordfish fun
Not quite re. your questions, but I think worth mentioning...
My late colleague & chum Charlie Solley volunteered for the navy, lying about his age, and for his pains became an airframe fitter on Swordfish, on an Escort Carrier on the Murmansk convoys.
He related one day that the windchill was such that the engine had to be started on the way up on the lift, if it reached deck level without running, no chance, back down again...
He then went onto Follands, then Hawkers / BAe, most of his career as an inspector ( was chief inspector on the first export Hunters to Chile )retiring as a draughtsman on the Harrier - so Charlie began and ended his career with Pegasus engines.
Of course, any mention of the Taranto raid should include the input of then Spitfire recce' pilot Adrian ( ? ) Warburton, who risked his neck repeatedly to get decent shots, a habit of his.
Unfortunately this habit didn't work so well when he was posted to overfly Nazi Germany - a great though sad story ( particularly of his girlfriend afterwards ) largely unknown by the public, though there was a film starring Alec Guiness which seemed based upon him.
My late colleague & chum Charlie Solley volunteered for the navy, lying about his age, and for his pains became an airframe fitter on Swordfish, on an Escort Carrier on the Murmansk convoys.
He related one day that the windchill was such that the engine had to be started on the way up on the lift, if it reached deck level without running, no chance, back down again...
He then went onto Follands, then Hawkers / BAe, most of his career as an inspector ( was chief inspector on the first export Hunters to Chile )retiring as a draughtsman on the Harrier - so Charlie began and ended his career with Pegasus engines.
Of course, any mention of the Taranto raid should include the input of then Spitfire recce' pilot Adrian ( ? ) Warburton, who risked his neck repeatedly to get decent shots, a habit of his.
Unfortunately this habit didn't work so well when he was posted to overfly Nazi Germany - a great though sad story ( particularly of his girlfriend afterwards ) largely unknown by the public, though there was a film starring Alec Guiness which seemed based upon him.
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Also a Crab and a Bootie on the main raid
In my humble opinion ,i dont think that any TAGS flew on the raid. Because of fuel/weapons
requirements
Williamson, K Lt Cdr RN
(failed to return POW)
Scarlett, NJ RN
(failed to return POW)
Sparke, PDJ Sub Lt (A) DSC RN
Neale, ALO Sub Lt (A) RN
Macaulay, ASD Sub Lt (A) RN
Wray, ALO Sub Lt (A) RN
Kemp, N McI Lt RN
Bailey, RA Sub Lt Sub Lt (A) RN
Swayne, HAI Lt RN
Buscall, J Sub Lt RNVR
Maund, MR Lt RN
Bull, WA Sub Sub Lt (A) RN
Kiggell, LJ Lt (A) RN
Janvrin, HRB Lt RN
Lamb, CB Lt (A) RN
Grieve, KG Lt RN
Patch, O Capt RM
Goodwin, DG Lt RN
Sarra, WC Sub Lt (A) RN
Bowker, J Mid (A) RN
Forde, AJ Sub Lt (A) RN
Mardel-Ferriera, A Sub Lt RNVR
Murray, JB Lt (A) RN
Paine, SM Sub Lt (A) RN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Strike Fleet Air Arm
Aircrew
Hale, JW Lt Cdr RN
Carline, GA Lt RN
Bayley, GW Lt RN
(FTR killed)
Slaughter, JH Lt RN
(FTR killed)
Lee, CSC Lt(A) RN
Jones, PD Sub Lt (A) RN
Torrens-Spence, FMA Lt RN
Sutton, AWF Lt RN
Welham, JWG Lt (A) RN
Humphreys, P Lt RN
Hamilton, RWV Lt RN
Weeks, JR Sub Lt (A) RN
Skelton, RG Lt (A) RN
Perkins, EA Sub Lt (A) RNVR
Clifford, EW Lt RN
Going, GRM Lt RN
Morford, WD Lt (A)
Green, RAF Sub Lt (A)
In my humble opinion ,i dont think that any TAGS flew on the raid. Because of fuel/weapons requirements Williamson, K Lt Cdr RN
(failed to return POW)
Scarlett, NJ RN
(failed to return POW)
Sparke, PDJ Sub Lt (A) DSC RN
Neale, ALO Sub Lt (A) RN
Macaulay, ASD Sub Lt (A) RN
Wray, ALO Sub Lt (A) RN
Kemp, N McI Lt RN
Bailey, RA Sub Lt Sub Lt (A) RN
Swayne, HAI Lt RN
Buscall, J Sub Lt RNVR
Maund, MR Lt RN
Bull, WA Sub Sub Lt (A) RN
Kiggell, LJ Lt (A) RN
Janvrin, HRB Lt RN
Lamb, CB Lt (A) RN
Grieve, KG Lt RN
Patch, O Capt RM
Goodwin, DG Lt RN
Sarra, WC Sub Lt (A) RN
Bowker, J Mid (A) RN
Forde, AJ Sub Lt (A) RN
Mardel-Ferriera, A Sub Lt RNVR
Murray, JB Lt (A) RN
Paine, SM Sub Lt (A) RN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Strike Fleet Air Arm
Aircrew
Hale, JW Lt Cdr RN
Carline, GA Lt RN
Bayley, GW Lt RN
(FTR killed)
Slaughter, JH Lt RN
(FTR killed)
Lee, CSC Lt(A) RN
Jones, PD Sub Lt (A) RN
Torrens-Spence, FMA Lt RN
Sutton, AWF Lt RN
Welham, JWG Lt (A) RN
Humphreys, P Lt RN
Hamilton, RWV Lt RN
Weeks, JR Sub Lt (A) RN
Skelton, RG Lt (A) RN
Perkins, EA Sub Lt (A) RNVR
Clifford, EW Lt RN
Going, GRM Lt RN
Morford, WD Lt (A)
Green, RAF Sub Lt (A)
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There's a book, History of FAA squadrons ( forget totally correct title & author ) but my father - who was FAA - borrowed it recently and thought it unusually accurate - I'll look it up again next time I'm at the museum library and pass on the details.
The book mentioned by your previous poster sounded promising, and while I don't know about their displays now as I haven't been for a year or two, Yeovilton used to make a big thing out of Taranto.
The people there are extremely helpful on the 'phone, and if the chap who answers doesn't know a reply, he'll pass you on to someone who does !
I don't really think we need reference to 'Crab's & Booties', it was an heroic effort full stop - shame the Japanese were taking note !
At a marina I used to berth my boat in, there was always a space reserved for ' The Admiral', in his Rolls Royce or similar; some fat gin swilling git, I thought.
It was only upon his passing that I found this was the chap, later Admiral Gick, who led the Swordfish attacks on the Bismark !!!
After the war he organised the building of Emsworth Marina, which is a glorious spot, given a shallow draught boat and nowadays the unlikely event of stumbling across a friendly 'management' person.
Doesn't change my view of Admirals much, but did teach me some sort of lesson - it turned out he was a person I'd have been honoured to meet...
Will look up that book and pass on details asap.
DZ
The book mentioned by your previous poster sounded promising, and while I don't know about their displays now as I haven't been for a year or two, Yeovilton used to make a big thing out of Taranto.
The people there are extremely helpful on the 'phone, and if the chap who answers doesn't know a reply, he'll pass you on to someone who does !
I don't really think we need reference to 'Crab's & Booties', it was an heroic effort full stop - shame the Japanese were taking note !
At a marina I used to berth my boat in, there was always a space reserved for ' The Admiral', in his Rolls Royce or similar; some fat gin swilling git, I thought.
It was only upon his passing that I found this was the chap, later Admiral Gick, who led the Swordfish attacks on the Bismark !!!
After the war he organised the building of Emsworth Marina, which is a glorious spot, given a shallow draught boat and nowadays the unlikely event of stumbling across a friendly 'management' person.
Doesn't change my view of Admirals much, but did teach me some sort of lesson - it turned out he was a person I'd have been honoured to meet...
Will look up that book and pass on details asap.
DZ
Last edited by Double Zero; 24th Feb 2009 at 20:50.
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Still no luck with my original post
the C and B word are a term of indearment. Like the great Admiral Percy Gick, would have been fondly known as a WAFU , As i am still, ex FAA. ps the book," FAA Hand Book 39 TO 45 by David (HARRY) Wragg" has all the squadrons and C/Os
the C and B word are a term of indearment. Like the great Admiral Percy Gick, would have been fondly known as a WAFU , As i am still, ex FAA. ps the book," FAA Hand Book 39 TO 45 by David (HARRY) Wragg" has all the squadrons and C/Os
Last edited by david parry; 25th Feb 2009 at 05:45.
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Pretty sure that's not the FAA book I saw recently; at Tangmere we have a large collection ( over 5000 books, available for the public to view but not usually take away) - I'm hoping to be back maybe tomorrow -Thursday - so will look it up, it has a fair bit of detail.
Meanwhile, have you tried Yeovilton ( the curator side of course )- the Chief Engineer there, whose name I'm ashamed to say I've lost at the moment, is very knowledgable & helpful.
Our curator at Tangmere, David Coxun, knows the airfield & relevant squadrons & operations inside out, no harm in my asking him, but I suspect Swordfish are a bit outside his remit.
As I say I'll look up the book ASAP.
DZ
Meanwhile, have you tried Yeovilton ( the curator side of course )- the Chief Engineer there, whose name I'm ashamed to say I've lost at the moment, is very knowledgable & helpful.
Our curator at Tangmere, David Coxun, knows the airfield & relevant squadrons & operations inside out, no harm in my asking him, but I suspect Swordfish are a bit outside his remit.
As I say I'll look up the book ASAP.
DZ
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The Navy Net: Rum Ration Forums General History The Tot - R.I.P. 31st July 1970 first poster is the TAGA webmaster.
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David Parry - here it is.
Right David,
I was able to look up in the Tangmere library today, and here's your answer.
" ( on the Taranto raid ) " no TAG's were carried, extra fuel + the night navigation skills of the Observers being considered more important".
From ' Carrier Combat' by David Wragg ( page 34 ), Sutton Press ISBN 0-7509-1397-5.
The book I had been on about is ' Squadrons of the FAA' by Ray Sturtivant.
It's a good, ( large ) accurate book, but when I tried to find the answer to your question, found the indices cover everything from airframe histories etc, but no 'Taranto' in the index.
From looking at it again, it's a good book but I don't think it would have detail such as TAG's - then again I didn't have time to go through it laboriously, and the David Wragg book seems to have come up trumps.
I know it still leaves the question as to whether the Observer's could send morse; I suspect not, but it's not mentioned - and even if looking at say Yeovilton's Swordfish, there's always the point as to whether it / they are the same mod' status as the Taranto machines.
Hope that's answered your main question,
DZ
I was able to look up in the Tangmere library today, and here's your answer.
" ( on the Taranto raid ) " no TAG's were carried, extra fuel + the night navigation skills of the Observers being considered more important".
From ' Carrier Combat' by David Wragg ( page 34 ), Sutton Press ISBN 0-7509-1397-5.
The book I had been on about is ' Squadrons of the FAA' by Ray Sturtivant.
It's a good, ( large ) accurate book, but when I tried to find the answer to your question, found the indices cover everything from airframe histories etc, but no 'Taranto' in the index.
From looking at it again, it's a good book but I don't think it would have detail such as TAG's - then again I didn't have time to go through it laboriously, and the David Wragg book seems to have come up trumps.
I know it still leaves the question as to whether the Observer's could send morse; I suspect not, but it's not mentioned - and even if looking at say Yeovilton's Swordfish, there's always the point as to whether it / they are the same mod' status as the Taranto machines.
Hope that's answered your main question,
DZ
Last edited by Double Zero; 26th Feb 2009 at 18:29.
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David,
Well we don't have any Swordfish aircrew veterans ( or your question would have been answered long ago ) but one of my chums was an immediately post-war radio operator, next time I bump into him I'll quiz him on this.
As a matter of probably no interest at all, we have a Lancaster radio kit with active morse key, and a working Aldis lamp; I make a point of teaching kids ' SOS' as it still might help them nowadays if in deep s**t.
When I was by that kit the other day, talking with the mum about the exhibits, one of the kids came up bothering & she said " go and learn to ( morse ) your name "...
When I said ' that'll take a while ' she replied " that's the idea ! ".
Will let you know on the TX/RX, probably after Monday.
Delta Zulu
Well we don't have any Swordfish aircrew veterans ( or your question would have been answered long ago ) but one of my chums was an immediately post-war radio operator, next time I bump into him I'll quiz him on this.
As a matter of probably no interest at all, we have a Lancaster radio kit with active morse key, and a working Aldis lamp; I make a point of teaching kids ' SOS' as it still might help them nowadays if in deep s**t.
When I was by that kit the other day, talking with the mum about the exhibits, one of the kids came up bothering & she said " go and learn to ( morse ) your name "...
When I said ' that'll take a while ' she replied " that's the idea ! ".
Will let you know on the TX/RX, probably after Monday.
Delta Zulu
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My feeling is that the Observer could send Morse. The auxiliary fuel tank went into his position, so he would move to the TAG's seat. In support of this view long range Swordfish( with Auxiliary tank) were sent to locate the Bismarck, and they signalled in Morse when they spotted her.
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Fuel or TAG
Swordfish 41,
I suspect you're in a position to know about these things !
If the Navy or Faireys did have the option of carrying an extra fuel tank - and a radio set for the Observer - in those days a heavy lump of kit ( that's the radio not TAG ! ) it was commendably far sighted...
I suspect you're in a position to know about these things !
If the Navy or Faireys did have the option of carrying an extra fuel tank - and a radio set for the Observer - in those days a heavy lump of kit ( that's the radio not TAG ! ) it was commendably far sighted...
Last edited by Double Zero; 3rd Mar 2009 at 17:53.
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W/T and R/T from Swordfish
All aircrew received signals training, so the Observer could transmit, but perhaps not as efficiently as a TAG. When a long range tank was fitted, the Observer would pysically occupy the TAG's seat so would be able to use the wireless set in the rearmost seat.
Range would depend on the transmissions freq and power. This is beyond my knowledge, and anyway the freq would be different depending on the Carrier, and Fleet.
I think you need to make some enquiries of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, or Navy Historical Branch. Whole question of signals and radio and impact this had on fleet ops is sadly neglected.
Range would depend on the transmissions freq and power. This is beyond my knowledge, and anyway the freq would be different depending on the Carrier, and Fleet.
I think you need to make some enquiries of the Fleet Air Arm Museum, or Navy Historical Branch. Whole question of signals and radio and impact this had on fleet ops is sadly neglected.
