parkcentral

Hi all,

I'm trying to recreate a realistic fuel burn figure of a DC-8-33 for simulation purposes.
European continent carriers (KLM, SAS) would cross the atlantic from Prestwick to Gander on their way to New York and back.

I know this could be done with a full passenger load either way across the pond.

What I would like to know is:
- When fully loaded with both Fuel and Passengers on departure, how much fuel would a 8-33 have left after the Preston-Gander hop? If you could give me an estimate in pounds that would be excelent, but hours of fuel left would also be very useful. I realise they had to account for head- and tailwinds, but an estimate in a neutral situation (a mean of both ways) would be just fine (of course, if any of you have more specific data, this would be largely appreciated).

- What flight levels where typically used by the DC-8-33 on the Prestwick Gander route?

Thanks for any input.

Nils

BelArgUSA

Hola Mr. ParkCentral -
xxx
You are forcing me to scratch my old head.
But I might lead you into the right direction here.
xxx
I flew the DC-8, long ago, but never the 20/30 Series with JT-4A engines.
The ones I flew were 55, 60 and 70s...
But I also know the JT-4A engines, flew with them in 707-320s...
JT-4A is a machine converting fuel to noise. Excellent engines, by the way.
They performed super well, at higher levels FL 350/390...
The fans JT-3D ran out of guts and ideas above FL 350.
But all that goes back as far as early/mid 1970s. I have to try to remember.
And I threw my old manuals away...
So bear with me.
xxx
I remember the JT-4As running around 4,000 lbs/per engine in cruise
So, a DC8-32/33 would have been cruising at some 16,000 lbs/hr.
KLM and Martinair used to fly them.
xxx
The DC8-50s I flew were cruised at .80 Mach. The DC8-30 would be same.
So that would have been 460 Kts TAS or so.
The distance EGPK to CYQX is about 2,000-2,100 NM on NAT tracks.
So it would take a Diesel-8 some 4:30 to 4:45 to fly that sector.
First hour, takeoff and climb, would have been 22,000 lbs.
Three hours of cruise would have burned a total of 48,000 lbs.
Descent and landing would have burned 5,000 lbs.
xxx
I would volunteer to say they burned 75,000 lbs total on that sector.
They would have carried 20,000 extra for alternate/reserves CYJT.
Configuration passengers FY would have been 150 pax. All economy 180 pax.
Typical cruise at FL 350 back then.
xxx
Winds - If unknown, guess 40-50 Kts winds average over the NAT.
So might cost you 5,000 lbs extra westbound, save 5,000 eastbound.
xxx
You owe me 2 Grolsch beers for the effort.
Proost, en tot ziens...!

Happy contrails

WHBM

DC8-30 was quite capable of getting from Amsterdam or Copenhagen to New York nonstop, and didn't have to stop at Prestwick/Gander, let alone at both. Likewise the 707-320 (same engine).

I think you may be thinking about the DC8-10 or 707-120, even earlier engines. These were almost entirely re-engined when the JT3D fan engine came along, which was not the case with the DC8-30, they lasted their lifetime on their original engines.

Goodness, even the Comet 4 of BOAC managed it with one (sometimes nil) stops from London to New York.

BelArgUSA

Sorry guys...
I answered the specific question EGPK-CYQX sector.
xxx
Their tanks were about 145-150,000 lbs if I recall correctly.
Yes, the DC8-32/33 could non-stop Europe to USA/Canada.
All European operators had DC8-30s... do not recall 20 series used there.
Range was around 9 to 10 hrs-long sectors + reserves.
xxx
The DC8-20s would have had to stop CYQX.
They had less fuel, probably around 120,000 lbs tank capacity.
DC8-10s even worse range, because JT-3C engines, lack of vitamins.
So using my numbers, that gives you an idea of range.
xxx
Hopefully our friend 411A will join-in here.
He also has 707/JT4 experience, and might recall more than I do.
xxx

Happy contrails

P.S./Note - Alitalia DC8s were 40 Series with RR Conways.
Understand they did select the R.Co.12 because better range...
For non-stop LIRA-KJFK

WHBM

There were a few. Here's an Air Spain DC8-20 :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0095825/M/

Got used on flights from Europe to the Canary Islands, trips such as Stockholm (pictured) or Helsinki down to Las Palmas/Tenerife have been long popular in winter and, being about 5-6 hours, beyond short haul jets until the 1980s. For the same reason Spantax bought up much of the world's Convair 990 fleet for the same flights.

Groundloop

However, SAS and KLM -30s were VERY common at Prestwick. As were Pan Am -20s.

WHBM

Indeed. Because these were all scheduled operations until well into the mid/late 1960s. Airlines like KLM and SAS got traffic rights through Prestwick and elsewhere (eg Manchester) during prop aircraft stopover days and didn't want to let go, until it was reasoned that the small numbers of passengers boarding didn't cover the costs. They were only a small proportion of their total transatlantic flights. They were often flights to secondary US points like Chicago.

Pan Am (DC8-30s by the way, the first ordered) had a daily service through Prestwick.

PIK3141

Post of a random summers day Prestwick 1965 with KLM, SAS and PAN-AM DC8's. KLM went PIK/New York non stop. Also an Airlift, and should have been Air Canada's presumably.

SATURDAY 12/6/65.
G-ASIV DC7C Caledonian (CA163) N/Stop Palma 10:--
CF-PWM DC7C Pacific Western (PW711) N/Stop Keflavik 10:29
EC-ARK Caravelle Iberia (IB791) N/Stop Barcelona 00:01
N124SW CL44D S.W.A. L.A.P.
G-APFO B707 B.O.A.C. (BA608)
N794PA B707 P.A.A. (PA161) 06:35 07:36
0-33232 C118A M.A.T.S. 07:-- Frankfurt
PH-LLK Electra K.L.M. (KL622E) Amsterdam 0.81 Amsterdam
N715PA B707 P.A.A. McGuire 08:2- Frankfurt
G-APFK B707 B.O.A.C.(BA538) J.F.K Manchester 08:42
N807PA DC8 P.A.A. (PA76/807) 08:21
SE-DBB DC8 S.A.S. (SK914) J.F.K. 08:26 Copenhagen
PH-SCC Dakota M.A.C. 10:04 Amsterdam 11:2-
1534 S2A R.C.N. 09:49 11:06
G-AMSU DC3 Dan Air I.O.M. 11:10 I.O.M. 11:47
G-ASYB Aztec C Logan Air Renfrew to S.A.L.
G-ASFL Cherokee Logan Air Renfrew to S.A.L.
N812PA DC8 P.A.A. (PA812/77) London 11:57 New York
0-15194 C124C M.A.T.S. “63rd T.C.W.” 12:05 Harmon 14:59
G-APFF B707 B.O.A.C. (BA607) Manchester Montreal
0-30292 KC97G U.S.A.F. “Tennessee ANG.”(PINKY 03) 13:07 Harmon 15--
PH-DCD DC8 K.L.M. (KL621) Amsterdam New York 13:--
G-APFK B707 B.O.A.C. (BA537) Manchester New York 13:--
G-ASFJ Bonanza Liverpool 18:31
0-33233 C118A M.A.T.S.
SE-CCI DC7F S.A.S. (SK096) New York Copenhagen 18:20
N108RD DC8 Airlift International Charleston 19:03 Frankfurt
G-ASIV DC7C Caledonian
N228SW CL44D B.O.A.C. 22:47
21784 C130E M.A.T.S. 23:08

WHBM

SAS 1963 summer timetable Copenhagen to New York :

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/sk63-04.htm

Nonstop, via Prestwick, and via Hamburg.

parkcentral

Thanks BelArgUSA!
Those figures are very helpfull. Now comes the time consuming work of adjusting scalars and trying them out.
I guess you know both your airports and breweries. I put those Grolsches on ice for you. Cheers mate!


Thanks to all you other guys for replying too.
I was indeed wondering why our carriers still landed at preston, when they could go non-stop. I thought it might have something to do with payload restrictions on the long stretch. Now I know why!

Cheers all,

Nils

Groundloop

Dont' forget that both SAS and KLM were operating the JT-3D powered DC-8-50 alongside there -30's, by 1963.

WHBM

Sorry but have to advise that the first 7 DC8s for SAS were all model 33 aircraft that all came in 1960. The next was SE-DBD, their first DC8-55 which didn't come until April 1965, one of three over the next couple of years. Then in 1967 the DC8-62 started arriving.

Groundloop

Rats!!

KLM had DC-8-50's by 1962, so assumed SAS would be similar.

Golden rule - never assume anything! (especially on PPRuNe as there is always someone who knows the right answer!)

WHBM

Don't worry I just did similar on another thread !

And yes, KLM were an early DC8-53 operator. After getting an initial seven series 33 in 1960 they received five DC8-53 in 1961, with more in subsequent years.

These five DC8-53 were not a particularly lucky batch of aircraft; one was lost near Lisbon when only 30 days old, it got into a spiral dive in night IMC and crashed into the Atlantic, so the whole batch was never in service together, while another blew up in a hangar at Amsterdam a few years later while repair work was being done inside a fuel tank.

If you want all the rivet-counting detail it's here :

http://www.planelist.net/dc-8.zip

captain.speaking

Contemporary commercial planning documents show a planning block time EGPK/CYQX of 4.30 hrs.

I have a fuel plan for a B707-321 [non-fan, same engines as the DC8-30 I think ?] for the sector EGKK/BGSF, planned as 4.25 block, as follows:

EGKK/BGSF 1804 Nmiles, wind average component -003, FL 350, time 4.01, fuel 61830 lbs.
Contingency fuel 3090 lbs
Alternate CYFB 500 Nmiles, wind average component -020, time 1.21, fuel 17390 lbs.
Contingency 830 lbs.
Holding 40 mins fuel 7950 lbs
Approach 850 lbs.
Total fuel required 91,940 lbs.

These figures are all based on actual performance 4% worse than book - by this time, the aircraft/engines were showing their age !

Hope this might be of interest/use


PS
Should have added that this was based on M.82 cruise.

rog747

hi there
i was air spains' rep at LTN and LGW from 1972 onwards,

they operated them in 189Y config
the engines were jt4a 17500 lbs thrust same as -33 models
very thirsty very noisy very dirty lol!

they had 6 dc8-21's ex eastern airlines and were not that reliable technically,
we often had subcharters from pomair (-33) and BIAS (-33) belgian carriers, and karair (finland -33)
amongst others !

as a previous poster mentioned they were operated from GLA and northern scandinavia airports to the canary islands LPA and TFS and ACE which were the longest sectors air spain did but i seem to recall they did op PMI to JFK and MAD to JFK a few times, i think the tech stop was in ireland.
someone here will correct me i am sure!

the fuel load at LGW for PMI was difficult to remember but i am sure air spain took enough fuel from PMI as it was cheaper to do the round trip with just a small top up at LGW.

if you post on the spanish forum about air spain dc-8's am sure you might get some old pilots who can help more...