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Two mid-air collisions

Old 27th Jul 2007, 11:01
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Two mid-air collisions

Can anyone confirm whether either or both of the following two collisions took place in uncontrolled IMC outside controlled airspace?
  1. Collision between Piper PA25 G-ASVX and RAF Phantom XV 493, mid-air, 10 miles SW of Marham, Norfolk on 9th August 1974
  2. Collision over Hartlepool on 21 May 1960 between two Javelins.

Can anyone remember any other uncontrolled IMC collisions, since 11 Dec 1941 between a Spitfire Mk VB descending in cloud towards RAF Digby and an Oxford Trainer that had taken off from RAF College Cranwell on a solo training flight?
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Old 27th Jul 2007, 21:44
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Can anyone remember any other uncontrolled IMC collisions, since 11 Dec 1941 between a Spitfire Mk VB descending in cloud towards RAF Digby and an Oxford Trainer that had taken off from RAF College Cranwell on a solo training flight?
This was I believe the Spit flown by an American volunteer John Gillespie Magee, who left behind the famous poem "High Flight".
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Old 27th Jul 2007, 22:03
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Timothy: Broken Wings has the following entries.

9.8.74 Phantom FGR2 XV493 41 Sdn Fordham Fen, 2m S of Downham Market Norfolk Collided with Pawnee G-ASVK on low level exercise 2+1 (2+1 refers to the number of fatalities)

21.5.60 Javelin FAW6 XA823 29 Sdn NE of Scarborough, Yorks Collided with XA835; abandoned and dived into the sea.
21.5.60 Javelin FAW6 XA835 29 Sdn 4m NW of West Hartlepool, Durham Collided with with XA823; abandoned on reaching the coast
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Old 27th Jul 2007, 23:00
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It's the uncontrolled IMC bit I am primarily interested in.
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Old 27th Jul 2007, 23:21
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Anything is possible, but I would think very unlikely that the Phantom/Pawnee collision would have been in IMC.
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Old 27th Jul 2007, 23:24
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Yes. Reading between the lines, I would guess that the Pawnee was crop spraying and the Phantom was en route, both at 250'.

Javelins, anyone?
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 09:41
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The Phantom/Pawnee collision was not in IMC.
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 09:47
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Thank you. Which leaves the Javelins.

Incidentally, this is all leading towards the following two statements:

"No civilian aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace has ever been involved in a mid-air collision."

and

"The last mid-air collision between two aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace was in 1941, over 65 years ago."

...can anyone think of any counter examples (pace the Javelins, which I am waiting for a definitive answer on)?
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 10:30
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Air North Website at
http://www.airnorth.demon.co.uk/section3z.htm

Preview of an article from January 2003 - Full article available on request.

"Escape From Eight Miles Up:"
The amazing story of a mid air collision between two RAF Javelin all- weather fighters over Hartlepool in May 1960.

8 miles up suggests 40,000 feet so most likely visual (VMC) ... but whether or not they were operating under IFR (eg night?) is another matter.
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 13:47
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IFR is not the issue, but IMC.

Essentially I am countering the argument that flying in cloud without a RAS in Class G is dangerous and foolish.

The facts appear to be that there has never been a civilian aircraft involved in a mid-air in uncontrolled IMC (whereas tens or hundreds have been involved in collisions in VMC) and that the last time there was a military collision was in 1941, when there were many more aircraft around.
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 14:03
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Essentially I am countering the argument that flying in cloud without a RAS in Class G is dangerous and foolish.
For extended periods arguably it is both, but not as dangerous or foolish as making it mandatory.
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 14:11
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For extended periods arguably it is both
But that is my point, there seems to be no historical evidence to support that view.

From an actuarial point of view, flying in VMC is demonstrably far more dangerous.

But that is an argument for another place. I am interested here in historical fact.
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Old 28th Jul 2007, 22:51
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The Phantom/Pawnee collision was in VMC by day.
Prior to this tragedy, the RAF never published details of low-level routes around the UK - this accident changed all that and gave rise to notification of such exercises in advance.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 03:46
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Two gliders coolided in cloud near Lashanm in the early 70's. Don't know more than that, but I know it's fact as I knew one of the pilots quite well. That would fit your category civilian aircraft in IMC outside controlled airspace.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 05:54
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Flying in IMC without either procedural clearance in CAS, or a RIS/RAS is an avoidable risk.

However, you do NOT need a RAS. RIS alone is perfectly adequate if you are capable of processing the information provided by the ATCO.

Relying on statistics may well make you one, Timothy. Please tell us where you would intend to put your daft theory to the test, so that those with more sense will not be endangered by you.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 08:02
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30/10/1995 - LU F3s Ze733 & ZE210 collided during night IMC NVG work up.

There was also the case of 2 GR1s which met nose to nose going opposite directions at night. I remember it because of a photo of a piece of metal about the size of a plate which they couldn't initially identify. It turned out to be a coin one of the crew had had in his pocket. I think it was the first of the two below, can remember the second but not if it was night IMC. Led to the introduction of ALFENS to deconflict night low level sorties.

9/8/1988 - ZA593 & ZA329, collided near Milburn, Cumbria.

14/8/1990 - ZA464 & ZA545, collided east of Spurn Head.

Also a couple of Javelin night collisions here:

15/9/1959 - XH775 & XA 662, collided during night intercept near Brundall, Norfolk.

26/10/1961 - Javelin XH906 & Canberra WD995, collided during night intercept north of Akrotiri.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 09:25
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Relying on statistics may well make you one, Timothy. Please tell us where you would intend to put your daft theory to the test, so that those with more sense will not be endangered by you.
Goodness me, you always know when you are back on PPRuNe, don't you! I fly in uncontrolled IMC much of the time, as I have done for the last 35 years. So do many, many other people. It is why IFR is not limited to controlled airspace in this country. BEagle, RIS is not Control. Please look it up.

ORAC, thank you, I will look into all of those.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 10:13
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I believe CAT Hamble lost some PA28's in mid airs around 1970.. don`t know whether they were in IMC though.

"No civilian aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace has ever been involved in a mid-air collision."
You are quite specific about the scope of the thread and your stated requirement to support this statement. OK

But statistically it's an interesting case because to put it in to context surely you'd have to record and factor the number of occasions Controllers have issued avoiding action instructions to aircraft on an RAS where an actual risk of collision existed.
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Old 29th Jul 2007, 21:15
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Tim

What is your definition of IMC?

I've bimbled along at 60 to 80 kts in 5000m viz quite happily, but wouldn't be if I was doing 250kts.

From memory;

1) Aztec over the North Sea at night hit by intercepting Betty Windsor Flying Club machine. Damage to wing tip only.

2) Aerial photo Cessna hit whilst circling by Jag? on NavEx over Wales. All dead.

Have you factored in the Quad rule. Has that affected the results?

I may have had some very near misses in IMC OCAS but then how would I know?

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Old 29th Jul 2007, 21:47
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I guess my definition of IMC must follow the legal definition of "that which is not VMC", though I must say that what I have in mind is flying in cloud, not doing 141kts at 2000' with a 2400' cloudbase

It is alarming to hear all the emotive arguments about it being unsafe when it seems to be the safest way to operate, at least actuarily.

But, as I say, there are other places to engage in that debate, I am just trying to get the history straight.

I had forgotten about the Aztec wing tip, though I do now recall it. I guess that that was the closest we are going to get to an en-route IMC collision involving a civilian aircraft outside CAS. Are we sure it was in IMC?
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