airsound,
Your support for Dr Pleming is not in question Sir, but I really do wish you would try to read what I said. It was all to do with an air test being defined as (according to the CAA says Dr Pleming) as an air display, you may recall.
To stop any further friction amongst us all, I shall speak to a contact I have in the CAA on Tuesday and get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak, as to whether they are treating the air test as an air display.
If they have not classed it as a display, will you be happy for me to post that on here or do you think it will be regarded as having another 'snipe' at the project?
This is not a gang of well-meaning enthusiasts patching up an old aeroplane to get it flying again
Despite my own jaundiced Maintenance Manager's view of the costs of heavy maintenance, aging aircraft programmes and supply chain difficulties, my own "doom and gloom" view isn't simply based upon the cost of getting the aircraft airworthy. A grant from the lottery and a very generous gift from a wealthy benefactor have kept the restoration moving. But what next?
Having got it flying again, keeping it airborne becomes a straight forward commercial business. People must pay money to see it fly.
Is the potential market large enough to support such a business? What did the market research say? As "due diligence" requires, market research was presumably done prior to signing the contracts with Marshalls and commencing work, but so far we have heard only about the engineering side of things and nothing on the project's long term viability. The Vulcan is certainly an impressive sight and sound in the air, but is it so impressive that sufficient air show organisers will pay a premium rate to cover the cost of having it fly at their show? I doubt if either the BBMF or the Red Arrows could continue in operation if they weren't RAF units and were obliged to earn sufficient income to directly and fully support their operations.
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About the only significant threat to the programme is from the purveyors of doom who have little idea of the whole project.
Enthusiastic supporters and wealthy benefactors have dug deep into their pockets to fund the restoration. Will they also be expected to keep XH558 airborne too? If so, it isn't a professionally administered commercial organization at all, but simply a "gang of well-meaning enthusiasts" getting people to dig into their pockets to realize their own personal dream.
I'll dig into my pocket and even my own spare time to support a worthy restoration project, but all my cash and effort is reserved for such deserving organizations as the De Havilland Heritage Trust. (As a Hatfield council tax payer I'm biased of course) I'm perfectly happy to see a Wooden Wonder in perfect condition and even capable of being retored to airworthiness, but its far too valuable an historical artifact to risk putting it into the air.
Hi, I never knew my initial post would attract so much attention...
However, whilst on holiday two weeks ago, in a rather hot place without rain, I had a conversation with a chap who was connected with the project, in a roundabout way.
I cannot give his name but he told me prior to an evening meal that it was the trusts intention, (and had been all along) to get the aircraft airworthy, do a few air shows in the UK, (less than ten) and then sell XH558 to the Americans who had shown a great interest in the project and who had actually made a very substantial offer to purchase the aircraft some months ago.
They wanted to fly her on the American circuit and didn't have the bureaucracy which was plaguing the project over here.
All I hope is that his info is NOT correct otherwise we have been completely sold out.
I have no reason to disbelieve the fellow in question. He sounded very credible indeed and he did know some of the ladies and gents I know who work on the project; and as their names are not in the public domain, this makes me think he might just be in possession of a snippet of information we are not supposed to hear.
Would the trust do this to its supporters?? I would like to think not but personally, I just don’t know anymore.
Last edited by Champagne Anyone? : 31st July 2007 at 00:17.
The Vulcan is budgeted to cost £1.2 million per year to operate which I guess will be consumed by salaries and the direct operating costs i.e fuel and insurance. She was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund as a national asset.
Any attempt to remove her from U.K airspace and sell her abroad would be contested in the courts.
The Vulcan is budgeted to cost £1.2 million per year to operate...
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...consumed by salaries and the direct operating costs i.e fuel and insurance.
Just admin and direct operating costs to pay for. Left out in the open between airshow appearances on a rent free airfield. No maintenance, no defective rotables to be sent back to the MROs for repair. Sounds good. The overhaul and modifications have removed all of the old girl's reliability problems then.
But to be a bit more realistic...
£100,000 a month.
Hmm. Lets see, just a few items off the top of my head, there's:
Hangarage and office accommodation;
Management - (how many?);
Crew Chief and presumably at least a couple of salaried technicians over and above the "gang of enthusiastic amateurs";
Retainer fees for Marshalls (to cover their cost of keeping resouces available);
Office staff to deal with bookings, public relations & press, creditors, debtors, transport, supplies & stores, planning, inspection and general administration etc.;
Rotables - something or other's bound to go U/s on every flight. The Vulcan was never a reliable old bird by any means, even by 1960's standards;
Consumables - oil; grease; light bulbs; hydraulic fluid; tyres etc.
Then come direct costs like fuel, insurance, ATC. The owner of the airfield from which it operates will naturally waive all landing fees etc.
The crew will of course happily pay handsomely for the privilege of being allowed to fly her.
Its on a Permit instead of a C of A so there'll be no need for daily or 'A' checks... and no need for a low utilisation maintenance programme or a calendar date dependent 'C' check, say, every three years.
Display season is about six months. So we need to clear £5,000 a week during the season. Yeah, 100 grand a month ought to just about cover it, but damn that's tight. No room for error there, like bad weather, "Crew-in" snags or - horror of horrors - cancellations due to unserviceability.
[Thinks: I wonder if they want a Maintenance Services Manager? I could be available for a bargain price of just £70,000 - thats less than £6,000 a month and good value for high quality.]
Last edited by Blacksheep : 31st July 2007 at 10:51.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 66
Posts: 5,335
Blacksheep,
I would be interested to see the business plan. Where is this revenue stream coming from?
Suppose the main air shows take about £1.2m each (Waddo 100000 * £12) then how much of that would be available to buy in the Vulcan?
How many 'en passant' appearances will it make? BBMF make a huge number of free passes en route to their displays.
When the RAF wanted to set up the Concorde/Red Arrows shot I believe the fee was something in the order of £100k. What would the Mall flypast have cost and who would have paid? Probably the MOD but they can't pay more than once of twice.
They're looking for a commercial sponsor. Not sure there is a great interest at the moment, but it might pick up after the first flight. And £1.2m isn't a great amount in sponsorship/advertising terms, especially if you write it off against tax.
Hell, Emirates paid £100m to get their name on the new Arsenal stadium and shirts for 8 years, and it costs about £4m a year to get your name on the sidepod of an F1 car.
That's it. ORAC has the answer to both sponsorship and painting.
It could be sponsored by DAZ (or whoever does the whitest white these days) and painted white. They could use it in television adverts and so get more publicity for the project.
I think I might be correct in saying that due to Lottery regs no sponsor will be able to 'brand' the life out of the jet - which may of course dissuade some potential investors.
The goodwill, merchandising, corporate and hospitality potential is massive though for any sponsor.
I've worked in sponsorship for a good few years now and, as has already been mentioned, the investment required to buy these rights is not great compared to some avenues that could be pursued ie football, motorsport, TV sponsorship etc.
I think the difficult bit might prove to be in attracting a 'long-term' sponsor. The team must be looking for a 3-4 year investment and that could be scary for potential sponsors with a "product" like the Vulcan.
Hopefully this won't happen but it would be a great shame to see her grounded after 12 months if the money dried up.
Noticed tonight on the webcams that 558 is looking remarkably complete - standing on her own 3 feet and the nose is now in place. Oh, and the seats and canopy are being fitted right now by the look of it.
Ground runs starting this week? (Fingers crossed!!)
"Roll up, roll up, sponsor our nuclear bomber with a huge carbon footprint. Oh, and by the way, if you pay us enough, we MIGHT just let you put a 6-inch sticker with your corporate logo on it on some unobtrusive place like the crew access door."
"Bomber engines to roar"
that is a headline in tonights Leicester Mercury.
It states that engine runs are to commence on Thursday, I'll ring up my mate and tell him to park his Burger van at Gilmorton playing field.
BOMBER ENGINES TO ROAR
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BY TIM HEALY
10:30 - 01 August 2007
The mighty roar of four Rolls-Royce Olympus engines will be heard in south Leicestershire tomorrow as vital tests of a restored Cold War bomber begin.
Britain's aviation history will be one step nearer being reborn as the final leg of a campaign for a Vulcan to fly once more gets under way.
If things go to plan, the mighty delta wing bomber will take to the skies over Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground Aerodrome during August.
But it is not yet known when the aircraft, which has been part of a 13-year, £5.5 million restoration campaign will make its official flight debut at an airshow.
Dr Robert Pleming, Vulcan to the Sky Trust chief executive, is making every effort to minimise the impact of the sound it will be creating.
He said: "Engine testing is an exciting stage for us, but for those people who do not share our enthusiasm for the Vulcan, I can assure them that the engines will not be turned on in the early morning, and tests will be limited to those that are essential, and of the shortest duration practicable."
He said the Vulcan to the Sky team would be using geographical features and wind direction to minimise the impact of the noise on surrounding villages
He said: "The Vulcan to the Sky project has always been proud to call Bruntingthorpe, and Leicestershire, its home and we are making every effort to be a considerate neighbour, and hope that once Vulcan XH558 is flying again, the local community will be proud of our achievements."
Project co-ordinator Rusty Drewett said: "As part of the process to certify the aircraft as fit to fly, all of the engines will be throttled up and tested, each producing eight-and-a-half tons of thrust."
She said that it was anticipated that the aircraft should take to the sky during August.
She said: "We will not be publicising the first test flights because we do not want people flocking to the area."
She said it was hoped that the aircraft should make at least one airshow flight before the end of the season.
The leader of Harborough District Council Coun Graham Hart welcomed the start of engine testing.
Mr Hart, who represents the villages around the airfield, said: "The local parishes are aware of the noise the engines will bring. But they will not mind because it is helping the revive of a piece of aviation history.
"The team behind the restoration have also been very co-operative and have held briefing sessions with local communities and have taken their views on board."
For information on the Vulcan to the Sky project, or details of test timings, call the office on 0116 247 8145.
Many moons ago there was a letter posted in the Lincolnshire Echo wanting to know if there was any truth in the story that there was a turntable at Waddo. Its purpose according to the lady, was to ensure that all the surrounding villages received an equal amount of noise during ground running.
"Many moons ago there was a letter posted in the Lincolnshire Echo wanting to know if there was any truth in the story that there was a turntable at Waddo. Its purpose according to the lady, was to ensure that all the surrounding villages received an equal amount of noise during ground running."
Absolutely priceless. How PC can you be.
Living some 30 miles from Bruntingthorpe I should be able to hear it if the wind is right. At least it will be better than the din from Rockingham Speedway which is but 7 miles distant.
Would it not be more apt if this thread were placed in the Aviation history and nostalgia forum, or,shudder the thought, the spotters corner since the military forum is 'a forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here'?
Call me crazy, but I might suggest that this ex-RAF nuclear bomber could be described as a piece of 'non-civilian' hardware, regardless of its current operators. The fact that many members of this forum have directly worked with the Vulcan in the past, many have put their hands in their pockets to support the project and virtually all keen to see her fly again, means that this forum seems to be a sensible place for the thread to reside.
A Viable Long Term Project?
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