It must be fairly obvious by now that the club members have done a lot of work, that should not be down to them. They have, in most cases contiued to donate, have succeded in getting friends and family to join the club and donate, have succeded in getting the project back in the limelight, this thread must also prove something as does the UKAR one.
Now if all this does not prove that the supporters of this project will, despite the total lack of help, info or direction from TVOC, do whatever it takes to show that we and 558 should be worthy of financial support. So again here is the challenge; If there is someone out there who has the money, the experience, the business acumen and the bottle to take this project on and manage it to a succesfull conclusion, then please consider doing it sooner rather than later.
Now if this still shows us up as "amateurish" and "ridiculous" then so be it, it will not stop us going untill even we have to admit it is a lost cause, and make no mistake we are not there yet, despite the best efforts by TVOC.
Maybe you're not getting my point, despite how many times I say it! What is the point of getting the attention of MP's or highlighting the project in a paper or the radio? What is this supposed to achieve?
Doesn't matter how many MP's you contact or how many newspapers pick-up the story, it's clear that nothing is going to happen as a result. So, as I keep saying, all of this good-intentioned action needs to be directed so that it actually achieves something, and as I've said repeatedly, there is only one practical solution - to pressure HLF into providing more funding, and to pressure them into investigating and sorting-out whatever TVOC have done with all the HLF's money.
You can forget petitions, EDM's, radio interviews, newspaper features. They're lovely but they don't do anything apart from maybe raising a few more pounds of donations. There's only one way this saga can be resolved, so why can't all this effort be directed towards a specific aim?
Tim is it possible that by the members, rather than TVOC ,showing how much this project means to them, by communicating this depth of feeling to the country through the media and government that someone may take up the mantle and respond to the challenge I posted in post #801:
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So again here is the challenge; If there is someone out there who has the money, the experience, the business acumen and the bottle to take this project on and manage it to a succesfull conclusion, then please consider doing it sooner rather than later.
This has, surely, got to be better than;
a. doing nothing
b. Waiting for TVOC to do something.
Its only a mere thought though.
Last edited by Exrigger : 29th February 2008 at 20:55.
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Why dont you impliment this plan of yours? have you actually took any acton at all over than call us amateurish etc? Our efforts may be for nothing fall on death ears but at least we are trying. So far on the forums all ive seen is lots of talk and little action and when people do try to do whatever they can. And when they achieve something no matter how small the likes of you dismiss it.
If(when) this project dies at least we will know we did all we could to keep it going, will you?
I take your point Flipflop and you're obviously in a better position to judge just how hopeless the TVOC situation may or may not be. Likewise, I would agree that a completely fresh start would be the ideal solution. My problem with this viewpoint though, is that a fresh start just isn't going to happen. How would it? Who would handle it? With what money? Worse still, even if it represented a fresh start, I would imagine that any prospective sponsor would be discouraged from supporting a project that has yet again ended in recriminations. It would hardly look like a good project to pour money into.
My point about the HLF is that they have huge amounts of money to spend and they could easily finance the aircraft at least for this year, on the grounds that they've already enabled the aircraft to get this far, therefore it would be complete folly to abandon the aircraft at this late stage. I agree it could look like a case of proverbially prolonging the agony, but there is no "agony" if HLF's input enabled the aircraft to fly. Surely, that's all we want? If TVOC is in a state of near-collapse then fine, I don't see how that is a factor if HLF stepped-in and either got TVOC into shape, or replaced them with people who can handle the job. They and they alone have the financial, legal and moral right to do it, so why not?
I just don't see how there's any alternative. Sending more contributions is certainly a case of throwing good money after bad and if TVOC is in danger of imminent collapse then okay, what will be will be. Maybe that is the opportunity for HLF to step in and rescure the project into which they've poured so much money? If HLF isn't the answer then what is the answer? If TVOC winds itself up and does no more, then surely that's the end of the whole project? I can't see anyone else stepping in either with management skills or (just as importantly) the money to do anything and once the aircraft starts to languish in the hangar it will obviously be more and more expensive to get it out again. So, I ask the question, if HLF isn't the answer then what is?
bubblesuk, I don't really know what you're proposing. How am I supposed to implement any plan? I have no influence with anyone otherwise I would obviously have used it by now! I've said it enough times - it needs someone with "clout" that either HLF or TVOC will take notice of. All I've been asking for is a little less of the talking and more discussion of what can actually be done. I get the impression that you resent my comments and that's fine, you're obviously entitled to your view, but the way I see things, you seem to think it unfair that I supposedly "dismiss" achievements "no matter how small"; my point was/is that these "achievements" aren't achievements at all - they achieve absolutely nothing. I've said all along that petitions, letters to MP's, radio and newspaper stuff, questions in Parliament and so on, are all well and good, and they reflect people's passion for the project to succeed, but they're fatally ill-conceived. They're not going to get a result, therefore it seems more practical to look at the ways in which we might all be able to make something happen. You can be sure that if we continue simply expressing our disappointment and frustration while people go off in all directions on their own self-declared campaigns, there will be nothing but fuss, and no results. I don't need to justify myself to you, I'm just saying what I think.
It's fine to say that if the project fails, you can sit back and say you did all you can to save it, but that would be a rather subjective conclusion. It depends what you perceive to be "doing all you can" doesn't it? Wasting time by shooting-off in all directions making pointless demands to people who cannot or will not influence the project is just activity for activity's sake, isn't it? Surely it's far wiser to first identify what precisely should be done - then we might stand some chance of finding a way to do it?!
Some of the members of parliment have promised to make representaions to the Department of Trade and Industry. Also more than one MP has promised to raise the matter with the ministry of defence. Is that enough clout for you?
In your posts you constantly talk of getting people in to sort things out, now im no expert but id assume that these dept's are not going to walk up and say " hello here have a big fat wad of cash" with out finding out if the money is going to be used properly.
Now may i respectfully suggest instead of dismissing out of hand what is being done without actually taking the time to find out who we have spoken to or what has been spoken about, you contact a club member or visit the 558 forum. failing that instead of all this talk of action why dont do enlist the help of a lawer or contact the HLF yourself and actually do something?
Im sorry if this is a little snippy but im tired of sarcasm, abuse and a wholesale patronizing attitude to those of us dedicated to see this aircraft fly by those seemingly hell bent on failure.
in my opinion (that of an ardent 558 supporter with limited, but not uninformed, knowledge of the 'behind the scenes stuff') is very simple.
money aside, CAA aside, MA aside, publicity aside - there is one single obstacle in the way, preventing 558's ASSURED future as a display aircraft - TVOC!
as FFM so elloquently (as ever) pointed out, there are very many issues at the core of TVOC that need urgent rectification. Dr Pleming (arguably) has proved to the world that he is the leader of a team that broke all the rule books, proved many learned people wrong and actually flown the world's very first ex-military complex aircarft type.
as i have said at length elsewhere, getting to that point was the focus of a 15 year dream. now, however, 558 finds herself in a whole new environment - she is now actually an aeroplane (thanks to the incredible dedication of those like FFM). there is currently NO-ONE employed by TVOC that has any experience in operating an aeroplane, let alone a Vulcan, LET ALONE displaying a Vulcan!
consider this - you purchase a run down house and decide to renovate it. such a project requires all the appropriate gas checks etc. okay, so it is finished - does the fact that you were capable of turning a 'wreck' into a habitable abode AUTOMATICALLY qualify you in the world of selling it? no - that's the job of an estate agent! would that estate agent profess to have the skill to rebuild said property? no - each must appreciate and respect their own, and others, limitations.
as FFM says, not without an unreasonable amount of authority, TVOC's work is done. bring in the team that know what to do next as TVOC have clearly demonstrated that they really do NOT know what to do next. simply saying to the world that they have achieved what many thought impossible does NOT equate to them knowing what to do next.
Some of the members of parliment have promised to make representaions to the Department of Trade and Industry. Also more than one MP has promised to raise the matter with the ministry of defence. Is that enough clout for you?
er... no!
I don't think you've understood or properly read what I've been saying. Surely, you don't imagine that MP's making representations achieves anything? Likewise, what on earth does raising the matter with the MoD achieve? In the first instance, the MP's will eventually come-back and say that they've raised the matter, but that the DTI say it's an issue for private initiative. The MoD will naturally (and rightly) say it's got absolutely nothing to do with them. Great - that solves er... nothing.
As you say yourself, no department is going to say "here, have a wad of money" - your own words, so why bother raising the issue in the first place? It's just pointless hot air, no matter how well intentioned it may be. I've highlighted what I think is the best (probably only) route through which the project's likely to be saved but if (as seems likely) most people opt to take your route, there's just going to be an endless series of campaigns, letters, emails, and heaven-knows what else, all achieving nothing. I trust you can see what I'm getting-at without getting upset?!
Incidentally, as for the repeated suggestions that I get involved and do something, I've been doing that for years, ever since I completed my first Vulcan book and started work on the second. I've spent more than enough time dealing with TVOC's mood swings and half truths, I've given them offers of help and publicity and they've ignored them. I've had my photographs sold and published without my permission, and I've wasted plenty of time going round in circles, arguing with the HLF. So please don't think I haven't done anything, I'm just able to see that supreme folly of all the activity that is going-on at present which is leading nowhere. I'm also in direct contact with some people who would be delighted to get behind any kind of orchestrated campaign, if there was one (not a dozen different ones) and one that actually had a direct purpose, not just a general, non-specific wish for the aircraft to fly.
Anyway, I'm falling into a trap here and doing what I've been urging others to avoid - arguing about everything but the key issue!
I've given them offers of help and publicity and they've ignored them. I've had my photographs sold and published without my permission, and I've wasted plenty of time going round in circles
Yourself and many many others Tim.
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My point about the HLF is that they have huge amounts of money to spend and they could easily finance the aircraft at least for this year, on the grounds that they've already enabled the aircraft to get this far, therefore it would be complete folly to abandon the aircraft at this late stage. I agree it could look like a case of proverbially prolonging the agony, but there is no "agony" if HLF's input enabled the aircraft to fly.
Only one draw back with this I can see, by the time they get new people through the vulcan course and authorised, then the aircraft made serviceable and ALL the independent checks done again, then permit to fly, then permit to display, and not to forget trying to convince oem's and outside support services that it is now being run professionally and they will be paid, I'm afraid you could probably forget this season.
Also you say if the HLF's input enabled the aircraft too fly, that sir is one huge IF.
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TVOC currently has many more issues clouding it than funding, and that is why personally I would implore people to keep their hands firmly in their pockets.
Ron I could not agree with you more its a travesty that it has gone down this route but as we both know its the only way forward.
Dr Pleming (arguably) has proved to the world that he is the leader of a team that broke all the rule books, proved many learned people wrong and actually flown the world's very first ex-military complex aircarft type.
Err.......that should be first UK ex-mil complex type, not world's........
If you guys want an idea of just how loopy and amateurish TVOC are, just take a look at the commercial sponsorship page on their website. Firstly, the Wall Of Fame page doesn't work in Firefox - text is black on grey. Completely unreadable.
OK, so we fire up Internet Explorer. Works OK now - but, hold on, for the privilege of a company logo in the hangar, plus vague promises of signage at 'key air shows', plus more vague 'features' in the newsletter, they want - wait for it - £50,000 per year!!
As a former marketing manager of 20 years, I can safely say that this is absolutely bonkers, apart from the simple fact that there are few (if any) companies out there who would want to sponsor an ancient RAF warplane in the first place...
I've tried for a year or so now to approach TVOC and "Rusty" to donate my time free of charge as a graphic designer. I've offered to produce websites, display boards, interactive learning material, promotional flyers, leaflets, posters, without fee.
I reckon this could have saved the project quite a few grand. Shame, I've never heard anything back further than a vague 'maybe', they seem a little disinterested in the promotional and ongoing educational side, which I would have said is their lifeline right now.
Cypherus, i know what i have seen and heard.
This may be hard to believe but i am not lying about anything i have written in this or any other forum. I think it is morally wrong for an organisation to keep asking for money from people who quite often cannot afford to give it. People deserve to know the truth and when they are told everything is fine they are being lied to. I stand by everything i have said. There is alot more i know that is even worse but i cannot divulge it due to the risk of litigation.
I do not represent my senior management , but i have a postion of responsibility within another UK based charity.
i know of a very senior manager which approached TVOC , with not only idea`s of fundraising opportunities which have worked well within the field we are in , but also assistance if needed;
what is sad is that this approach was made on numerous occasions , and yet little if no reply was recieved, it is as if the management of TVOC are not really that interested.
This is exactly one of the problems with the project. Time and time again assistance and advice has been offered but due to the fact that certain people say 558 is THEIR aircraft and it is THEIR project offers tend to be ignored.
A non-primadonnerish attitude is what is needed here.
... and still the gripes and accusations continue.
Is there any point to all this? I think we've established that everyone believes TVOC are not doing a good job or worse. But could we take that as understood now and move on?
Whatever they're doing, there's nothing we can do about it, so why keep harping-on about their alleged "crimes" and failings?
Only the HLF has sufficient legal and moral grounds to step-in and stop them, and if necessary replace them with other people. Likewise, only HLF has immediate access to huge sums of money. They're the only people that can sort-out this mess so instead of petitions, pointless emails, letters to MP's or anything else, why can't we make an orchestrated effort to campaigh for HLF to stop sitting on their hands and rescue the project, before all their (our) money is completely wasted?
... or do we just want to whine about TVOC until the Vulcan rusts away?
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