Gannet AEW3's
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LFH, thank you for that link. Nice to know so many remember Red as I do. Which Gannet(s) did you fly, and when?
Proggie, very pleased/sorry to read about your Dad. As I said earlier, a good man to be around.
Mike
Proggie, very pleased/sorry to read about your Dad. As I said earlier, a good man to be around.
Mike
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the kind words about my dad, I had seen the other thread you linked to LFH - I'm sure he would have been pleased (and not a little embarrassed) to know how well he was regarded by his peers. Lossiemouth in spring 1970 would have meant the Sea Prince and I would have been about 2 1/2 
He had only been retired for a couple of years when he was diagnosed with the big C and, unfortunately, the chemo wasn't effective in the long run. He never complained about it though which was typically Red.
I don't know whether his given name was a family one, I suspect it may be a Manx one.
Sorry for taking this thread off topic but it's nice to get to know people who knew dad back in the day
He had only been retired for a couple of years when he was diagnosed with the big C and, unfortunately, the chemo wasn't effective in the long run. He never complained about it though which was typically Red.
I don't know whether his given name was a family one, I suspect it may be a Manx one.
Sorry for taking this thread off topic but it's nice to get to know people who knew dad back in the day
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not off topic, he flew that Gannet and was on the other side of Paul at Farnborough so would have had much the same impressions that day.
750 in early 1970, we must have missed each other by days......
Mike
750 in early 1970, we must have missed each other by days......
Mike
Red was a Dan 1-11 trainer MAN based. He did a few of my sims in Dublin, and I will not say that the sim was a pleasure, it never was, but having Red run it as the 'trapper trainer' was.
Liked the man a lot.
Liked the man a lot.
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for those kind words staircase, I'll have to show my mum this thread - no doubt she'll try to work out who you all are!
For those of you who don't know, Horizon Aircraft Services are restoring XL500 with the intention of getting her flying again - that I would really like to see
For those of you who don't know, Horizon Aircraft Services are restoring XL500 with the intention of getting her flying again - that I would really like to see
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never actually put a Gannet down on its belly, but have to confess to this one......
Brawdy was a busy Naval Air Station. The Massed Gannets of 849 Squadron HQ and the four sea-going Flights were based there, 759 Squadron had T8 Hunters for Advanced Flying Training, 738 had the utterly beautiful Hunter GA11 for Operational Training, 781 passed through regularly with the Clipper (Sea Heron), the Maintenance Unit air tested their work and Station Flight handled all sorts of visitors as well as their own Vampires and Sea Prince.
So, flying apart, taxiing to and from the duty runway took one past a wide variety of flight lines and hardware. And, like most airfields, it wasn't exactly level. Rural Pembrokeshire must have presented quite a challenge to the original constructors.
One late September day in 1965, almost exactly fifty years ago today, Tony Darby and I were taxiing back in an AEW3 after a training sortie. As we rounded the corner before the long lines of Hunters Tony suddenly said "I can hear the hook dragging on the ground!"
The arrester hook is held UP hydraulically so it drops in the event of failure. I looked for the gauge, conveniently hidden by my left knee, to see the needle drop to zero. It had been fine a minute before as we turned off the runway. After 50 years I can't recall the cause, but was now faced with the effects.
We were only doing about 15 mph but no longer had brakes. This meant we could neither stop nor steer. We were pointed down a long stretch of straight taxiway, slightly downhill at first and then sloping up again on open ground BUT, to reach that open ground we had to pass between a row of GA11's, a row of T8's and a hangar on our left, with hangars and parked cars on our right. To add to the fun, the ground overall also sloped gently to our right.
In a propellor-driven aircraft you CAN steer with rudder on the ground, at the risk of steadily increasing speed and possible control difficulties. Faced with the possibility of hitting any of the hardware either side of me at 30 knots or more I rapidly decided on a safer course. I shut down both engines while simultaneously telling an incredulous Channel One controller in the Tower what was going on.
Momentum and a bit of gravity kept us going ahead in a straight line and I began to be hopeful. Then, very gradually, the Gannet began to wander off to the right. Slowing gradually, we went across the grass in front of 759 Squadron and into the parked cars.
We picked up the Air Engineer Officer's almost new Sunbeam Rapier with the starboard oleo and a green Minivan with the radome........and were stopped abruptly by a static water tank.
By now, everything on board was turned off. No signs of fire or anything like that, Tony and I left the aircraft rapidly. I climbed the 14 feet down the side still masked and helmeted to be faced by the local civilian owner of the mangled Mini, who I knew well.
As I tore off all my headgear Dai looked at me and said "I might have bloody known it was you........Sir!"
Mike
The Static Tank
So, flying apart, taxiing to and from the duty runway took one past a wide variety of flight lines and hardware. And, like most airfields, it wasn't exactly level. Rural Pembrokeshire must have presented quite a challenge to the original constructors.
One late September day in 1965, almost exactly fifty years ago today, Tony Darby and I were taxiing back in an AEW3 after a training sortie. As we rounded the corner before the long lines of Hunters Tony suddenly said "I can hear the hook dragging on the ground!"
The arrester hook is held UP hydraulically so it drops in the event of failure. I looked for the gauge, conveniently hidden by my left knee, to see the needle drop to zero. It had been fine a minute before as we turned off the runway. After 50 years I can't recall the cause, but was now faced with the effects.
We were only doing about 15 mph but no longer had brakes. This meant we could neither stop nor steer. We were pointed down a long stretch of straight taxiway, slightly downhill at first and then sloping up again on open ground BUT, to reach that open ground we had to pass between a row of GA11's, a row of T8's and a hangar on our left, with hangars and parked cars on our right. To add to the fun, the ground overall also sloped gently to our right.
In a propellor-driven aircraft you CAN steer with rudder on the ground, at the risk of steadily increasing speed and possible control difficulties. Faced with the possibility of hitting any of the hardware either side of me at 30 knots or more I rapidly decided on a safer course. I shut down both engines while simultaneously telling an incredulous Channel One controller in the Tower what was going on.
Momentum and a bit of gravity kept us going ahead in a straight line and I began to be hopeful. Then, very gradually, the Gannet began to wander off to the right. Slowing gradually, we went across the grass in front of 759 Squadron and into the parked cars.
We picked up the Air Engineer Officer's almost new Sunbeam Rapier with the starboard oleo and a green Minivan with the radome........and were stopped abruptly by a static water tank.
By now, everything on board was turned off. No signs of fire or anything like that, Tony and I left the aircraft rapidly. I climbed the 14 feet down the side still masked and helmeted to be faced by the local civilian owner of the mangled Mini, who I knew well.
As I tore off all my headgear Dai looked at me and said "I might have bloody known it was you........Sir!"
Mike
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just found this account of the Middleton/Nash/Jones night bale-out from a 360 Squadron AS Gannet, well worth reading:-
http://www.aeroclocks.com/images/pic...20OCT%2007.pdf
....it has good info on the aircraft itself also.
Squadron rumour in 849 was that Oboe Jones landed in calm water, deployed his dinghy, opened his emergency rations and was looking for his flares, and then realised the water was fresh. He was in a clay pit and therefore paddled to shore.
Mike
http://www.aeroclocks.com/images/pic...20OCT%2007.pdf
....it has good info on the aircraft itself also.
Squadron rumour in 849 was that Oboe Jones landed in calm water, deployed his dinghy, opened his emergency rations and was looking for his flares, and then realised the water was fresh. He was in a clay pit and therefore paddled to shore.
Mike
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ditching a Gannet AEW3
Ditching an AEW3 was regarded with some trepidation by everyone, the aircraft tended to nose down abruptly and the pilot seldom got out although the observers did. Many thought the radome was responsible for tipping the aircraft abruptly on its nose.
This was entirely possible but, as I understand it, the radome tore off immediately on contact with the water. The big oval scanner inside it was parked in the fore and aft position by the observers, reducing the tipping forward risk to the minimum possible.
The real problem was the cockpit hood. It was wonderful under normal circumstances, a huge un-interrupted Perspex dome. In fact, for the tropics there was even an overhead blind the pilot could use to keep direct sun off his bonedome. But it was hydraulically operated fore and aft.....and it was HEAVY.
With no hydraulic help available after ditching, the pilot had to pull it back under his own power, not everyone managed it in time. The weight of the Double Mamba up front would cause the aircraft to nose down fairly soon, and then head straight down.
Anyway, I forget the cause of Pete's ditching (double-engine fire warnings?), sufficient to say he was faced with it. He made a flat as possible glide onto the water with the cockpit OPEN. The aircraft did a quick nose-down and then settled, floating more or less level. Pete found himself sitting up to his chest in water, and made a rapid, euphoric exit.
He climbed onto, I think, the port wing and saw both observers were already out and inflating their dinghies. Unbelievably pleased with himself he said "Hey! I did it! I ditched a Gannet!" or something very similar and lowered himself over the leading edge of the wing into the sea.
At this point the Gannet took charge, the nose dropped abruptly and the aircraft headed down at speed. Pete struggled to get free from being jackknifed around the leading edge but was held there by the onrushing water. He said his thought was "How bloody stupid to get out and then die like this" and then resorted to pulling the toggle of his Mae West. It inflated, and pulled him up over the edge of the wing......
Meanwhile, Kevin and Bob were sitting in their dinghies wondering what had happened to Pete, who they had seen a moment before. The aircraft was gone and not a sign of him.
Like a champagne cork, Pete erupted from the sea, they swear he went up about 20 feet before falling back, tearing off his mask and gasping for air. Within a few minutes the SAR chopper had them and they were soon back aboard Centaur.
Pete was convinced that the open hood was what saved him and I'm sure he was right. We all took notice of it.
---------------------------------------
The Footnote to this was in "B" Flight's Line Book. For those who remember the Royal Navy's Duty-Free Blue Liner cigarettes, a slight change of the wording on the package......
"427. This aircraft may be landed, given away or otherwise disposed of...."
Mike
Am I getting confused ,but was there not a mod to the Gannet AEW 3 in the 60's that provided a "semi-ejection" system where the pilot's canopy went back ( or off?) and the seat popped up a couple of feet?
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Haraka, you are largely correct re the Gannet AEW3's proposed mini-ejection system. Am working on the best description I can, based largely on memory and word-of-mouth at the time.
Will post it once I have finished,
Mike
Will post it once I have finished,
Mike
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kingston, Canada
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is as much as comes to mind about the Gannet's mini-ejector system Haraka mentions. I welcome any further contributions!
Mike
The Gannet had no ejector seat, but as John Middleton proved, baling out while airborne was perfectly feasible at the aircraft's relatively low speed. But the Gannet AEW3 had a reputation for pilots not escaping after ditching - see my earlier entry. However, shortly before I left the Andrew an escape mechanism was mooted.
I have no idea if anything came of it, nor how much of what follows is actually true (this is how it was told to me), but it was an interesting proposal.
On the assumption that, after ditching, the cockpit canopy remained closed and the pilot could not escape or was not conscious, an automatic sequence would start:-
....the idea being that, even if he were unconscious, he should float safely to the surface.
If anyone has more info than I, please post it! Meanwhile, I recall Crewroom discussions about possible airborne malfunctions where the two Observers would see their pilot suddenly hurtle past the window with fully inflated Mae West and no parachute.........
Mike
Proposed Escape Mechanism for Gannet pilot
I have no idea if anything came of it, nor how much of what follows is actually true (this is how it was told to me), but it was an interesting proposal.
On the assumption that, after ditching, the cockpit canopy remained closed and the pilot could not escape or was not conscious, an automatic sequence would start:-
- At a pre-determined fairly shallow depth, a cockpit panel behind the pilot would implode. This would set off.......
- Canopy blown off explosively
- Harnesses released, both seat and parachute.
- Spring-loaded mechanism (I cannot find details) attached to pilot which would, in effect, lift him by the scruff of the neck at least two feet and.....
- Mae West would inflate.
....the idea being that, even if he were unconscious, he should float safely to the surface.
If anyone has more info than I, please post it! Meanwhile, I recall Crewroom discussions about possible airborne malfunctions where the two Observers would see their pilot suddenly hurtle past the window with fully inflated Mae West and no parachute.........
Gannet AEW 'Underwater escape assistance package'
To add to Mike's post above -
There was clearly a problem with the Gannet Mk 3 ditching situation, which may not have been fully anticipated at the design stage. After 'jettisoning' the hood, which appears to have been merely a mechanical disconnection rather than the more decisive explosive removal, the pilot's hood (ie canopy) tended to slide forward freely, presumably still on it's rails, encouraged by it's heavy weight and the nose down sinking attitude, thus trapping the pilot, with fatal consequences. This of course depended on whether the deck landing was made with the hood locked open or fully closed. My recollection is that in later years at least, the SOP for both AEW and AS versions was 'hood closed and locked' as it was very draughty and noisy if open. On the other hand, on a nice sunny day, opening the canopy for a while in the cruise could be quite exhilarating.
From Simon Askins' excellent Gannet book page 60 - (see my post # 47, and referring to a distressing 1962 fatality)
"Later on a catch was fitted to hold the hood open – although the resultant gap was still only sixteen inches. Addressing these problems, in the final years of the Gannet's service an underwater escape assistance package was devised and installed. This worked on compressed air and first removed the canopy, then pushed the pilot, in his seat, clear of the aircraft, inflated his life jacket and finally separated him from the seat. It is not known whether the system was ever tried in anger, though the theory seems impeccable."
Simon also observed Page 19, that
"Of the AEW Mk 3s, 22 out of the 44 built were lost to accidents or misfortune."
About standard for FAA aircraft of that era and the contemporary procurement processes.
LFH
There was clearly a problem with the Gannet Mk 3 ditching situation, which may not have been fully anticipated at the design stage. After 'jettisoning' the hood, which appears to have been merely a mechanical disconnection rather than the more decisive explosive removal, the pilot's hood (ie canopy) tended to slide forward freely, presumably still on it's rails, encouraged by it's heavy weight and the nose down sinking attitude, thus trapping the pilot, with fatal consequences. This of course depended on whether the deck landing was made with the hood locked open or fully closed. My recollection is that in later years at least, the SOP for both AEW and AS versions was 'hood closed and locked' as it was very draughty and noisy if open. On the other hand, on a nice sunny day, opening the canopy for a while in the cruise could be quite exhilarating.
From Simon Askins' excellent Gannet book page 60 - (see my post # 47, and referring to a distressing 1962 fatality)
"Later on a catch was fitted to hold the hood open – although the resultant gap was still only sixteen inches. Addressing these problems, in the final years of the Gannet's service an underwater escape assistance package was devised and installed. This worked on compressed air and first removed the canopy, then pushed the pilot, in his seat, clear of the aircraft, inflated his life jacket and finally separated him from the seat. It is not known whether the system was ever tried in anger, though the theory seems impeccable."
Simon also observed Page 19, that
"Of the AEW Mk 3s, 22 out of the 44 built were lost to accidents or misfortune."
About standard for FAA aircraft of that era and the contemporary procurement processes.
LFH
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: England
Age: 57
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re post #12 the mishap at West Raynham involving the Armstrong Siddeley reps car being chewed by a wayward aeroplane was actually Wyvern S.4 VZ799 of the resident 787 Sqdn Naval Air Fighting Development Unit on the 15th September 1954.
By the way this is an amazing thread, really enjoying those stories and memories of the dear old Gannet. Thanks to all of you.
Rob
By the way this is an amazing thread, really enjoying those stories and memories of the dear old Gannet. Thanks to all of you.
Rob
Last edited by Wyvernfan; 1st Oct 2015 at 19:48.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Auckland, NZ
Age: 79
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That photograph of the Short Seamew made me think of the Fleet Shadower. Same design principle: make them so ugly no one can bring themselves to look at them--cheaper than stealth.
I made the KeilKraft model of the Gannet which did fly well. I have remembered that when I was on 47 Sqn (Hercules) one of our co pilots went off to fly the Gannet on exchange with the RN. I think his name was Mike N.