BA Collection at RAF Cosford under threat (Merged)
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Your of course right Albert Driver: My attitude can be construed as defeatist and not helped by Mig15s post as it sums ups the situation that existed in part of the BA management structure at the time he made his offer.
They would have been totally nonplussed at how to respond. Amazed anyone would make the offer without payment and totally without any understanding that peserving their history would be of interest outside some 'nuts' within the company.
Another reason for my less than 'positive' attitude is that within BA there are many who do passionately care about preserving the Company Heritage and not just out of a sense of 'History' but as something that can work for the company in Marketing, Advertising and Promotion. But if those working from the inside cannot stop acts of corporate vandalism who can!
Whilst this thread is about the Aircraft Collection, the loss of BEA and BOAC Heritage Material has wider implications than just the Aviation History Community - BEA were early Adopters and Developers in Aviation Specific Computing as well as more General Business Aplications, Telecommunications Systems and Networks. Use and development of Ground Transport Operations both Bus and Truck. In all these cases echoes of this pioneering work still exist in todays Airlines and Transport Industries. So much of this has been lost and because so many of the 'people who were there' are no longer with us, it is well nigh impossible to 'reconstruct the story'.
So from my viewpoint and I accept today (especially) that I am in a non-positive frame of mind, the fate of the Aircraft Collection is another lost cause in the 'long defeat' over the British Airways Heritage.
When the RAF and others 'woke up' to what had already been lost and what was in clear and present danger of disappearing, they did start to do something (too slow one might say)! BA perversely seemed to go the other way!
As for Cosford - It is not for me to defend them further - they are big enough to do it themselves. But even if they are deemed not totally blameless (and I remain to be convinced that any blame can be attached), as this was not the 'National Airliner Collection', the Company who's name it bore is the primary Culprit.
DIH
They would have been totally nonplussed at how to respond. Amazed anyone would make the offer without payment and totally without any understanding that peserving their history would be of interest outside some 'nuts' within the company.
Another reason for my less than 'positive' attitude is that within BA there are many who do passionately care about preserving the Company Heritage and not just out of a sense of 'History' but as something that can work for the company in Marketing, Advertising and Promotion. But if those working from the inside cannot stop acts of corporate vandalism who can!
Whilst this thread is about the Aircraft Collection, the loss of BEA and BOAC Heritage Material has wider implications than just the Aviation History Community - BEA were early Adopters and Developers in Aviation Specific Computing as well as more General Business Aplications, Telecommunications Systems and Networks. Use and development of Ground Transport Operations both Bus and Truck. In all these cases echoes of this pioneering work still exist in todays Airlines and Transport Industries. So much of this has been lost and because so many of the 'people who were there' are no longer with us, it is well nigh impossible to 'reconstruct the story'.
So from my viewpoint and I accept today (especially) that I am in a non-positive frame of mind, the fate of the Aircraft Collection is another lost cause in the 'long defeat' over the British Airways Heritage.
When the RAF and others 'woke up' to what had already been lost and what was in clear and present danger of disappearing, they did start to do something (too slow one might say)! BA perversely seemed to go the other way!
As for Cosford - It is not for me to defend them further - they are big enough to do it themselves. But even if they are deemed not totally blameless (and I remain to be convinced that any blame can be attached), as this was not the 'National Airliner Collection', the Company who's name it bore is the primary Culprit.
DIH
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I have a great deal of sympathy with all you say, Opssys, and I'm certainly not going to defend BA's record on the conservation of its heritage. But at the end of the day BA is an airline, and one that is currently fighting for survival and short of cash for anything that is not part of the core operation. The RAF Museum on the other hand exists only for the purpose of preserving and displaying historic aircraft. To say, as John Francis has, that the MOD can't continue to support the BA collection at Cosford until all other ways to preserve these aircraft complete have been exhausted flies in the face of everything the Museum was created for. RAF aircraft were saved for the RAF Museum by non-RAF personnel but the RAF Museum won't delay the destruction of a unique collection of non-RAF aircraft until private funding becomes available again, as it surely will, to preserve them. What kind of a museum policy and attitude is that? What kind of barbarian Directorate? Given that BA has abandoned its Collection why does Cosford necessarily have to connive in its destruction?
Both BA and Cosford have stated that the aircraft are to be "moved to other museums", "disassembled and re-assembled", "found new homes", "deconstructed and reconstructed" etc etc. These are downright untruths and both organisations (and that means the Directors who made these misleading statements) should be held to account for their dishonesty.
Both BA and Cosford have stated that the aircraft are to be "moved to other museums", "disassembled and re-assembled", "found new homes", "deconstructed and reconstructed" etc etc. These are downright untruths and both organisations (and that means the Directors who made these misleading statements) should be held to account for their dishonesty.
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Aah Yes as Albert Driver states BA is a Commercial Organisation operating in many markets which in 'normal' times (whenever those are) are 'cut throat' and at the same time in a period when fuel prices are high and variable, with both internal and external costs rising!
Believe it or not I do have considerable sympathy the Board and Senior Management at BA whilst they attempt to deal with this situation (the phrase once uttered by an IBM Chairman does come to mind - 'How do you make an Elephant Tap Dance' when he was trying to restructure IBM to enable it to react to difficult commercial circumstances).
However BA has enjoyed extremely profitable periods and has, many times, blown money on expensive exercises which proved futile!
But even when annoucing excellent profits has never given any real consistent thought to heritage matters.
Although far, far, too late, I am sure that a reasonable 'Heritage Policy' even if implemented as late as the early 1990's could have mobilised a lot of BA retired Engineers to help with the Aircraft at Cosford - Providing Transport too/from a Heathrow area Location could have been arranged.
People like MIG15 were willing to assist.
Even non-Engineering volunteers, where BA or non-company could have been used for the less skilled jobs and done it for transport and an Airline Meal :-).
This would have been low cost and given BA some positive Publicity (which is always something PR want).
As we accept BA is entirely a commercial organisation, (then despite my belief they could have benefited from the Collection in ways that would show some tangible result) and found the cost of supporting the Airliner Collection a burden, then a decade ago there were some alternatives. If you like they could have given it to the 'Nation' with a one-off never to be repeated money donation. This would have forced several Government, NGO's concerned with Heritage and Cosford to take on-board the idea of a 'National Airliner Collection'
But all of that is in the past - What survives, whether complete, or as remains are going to good homes.
I said I wouldn't defend Cosford further: But as their ultimate master is the MoD, I suggest this tends to 'focus' the Museums priorities!
Note to Albert Driver:
I suspect that over a few pints we could end up 'issuing a joint statement' that would accommodate our differing views. But a thread based conversation isn't going to achieve that :-)
DIH
Believe it or not I do have considerable sympathy the Board and Senior Management at BA whilst they attempt to deal with this situation (the phrase once uttered by an IBM Chairman does come to mind - 'How do you make an Elephant Tap Dance' when he was trying to restructure IBM to enable it to react to difficult commercial circumstances).
However BA has enjoyed extremely profitable periods and has, many times, blown money on expensive exercises which proved futile!
But even when annoucing excellent profits has never given any real consistent thought to heritage matters.
Although far, far, too late, I am sure that a reasonable 'Heritage Policy' even if implemented as late as the early 1990's could have mobilised a lot of BA retired Engineers to help with the Aircraft at Cosford - Providing Transport too/from a Heathrow area Location could have been arranged.
People like MIG15 were willing to assist.
Even non-Engineering volunteers, where BA or non-company could have been used for the less skilled jobs and done it for transport and an Airline Meal :-).
This would have been low cost and given BA some positive Publicity (which is always something PR want).
As we accept BA is entirely a commercial organisation, (then despite my belief they could have benefited from the Collection in ways that would show some tangible result) and found the cost of supporting the Airliner Collection a burden, then a decade ago there were some alternatives. If you like they could have given it to the 'Nation' with a one-off never to be repeated money donation. This would have forced several Government, NGO's concerned with Heritage and Cosford to take on-board the idea of a 'National Airliner Collection'
But all of that is in the past - What survives, whether complete, or as remains are going to good homes.
I said I wouldn't defend Cosford further: But as their ultimate master is the MoD, I suggest this tends to 'focus' the Museums priorities!
Note to Albert Driver:
I suspect that over a few pints we could end up 'issuing a joint statement' that would accommodate our differing views. But a thread based conversation isn't going to achieve that :-)
DIH
All good points.
Yes but the money we're talking about is absolute peanuts to a large airline. Probably a tiny fraction of a typical BA telly commercial. I'd have thought the good publicity alone would be work the poultry investment - but I guess it's probably considered that the 'audience' isn't big enough.
Originally Posted by Opssys
As we accept BA is entirely a commercial organisation...........
Thought police antagonist
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Originally Posted by Mig15
About 10 years ago I offered my services, ground equipment and workforce to BA , totally free of charge to spend a couple of months at Cosford carrying out preventative maintenance.
The response?
NOTHING!
I tried to chase it but nobody was interested!
The response?
NOTHING!
I tried to chase it but nobody was interested!
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You say it was 10 years ago, Mig15, that you made the offer to do some conservation work on the BA Collection. That puts it firmly in the Bob Ayling era of the ethnic tails and contempt for anything reflecting BA's past. Another great Ayling legacy, then. Thanks Bob.
The RAF Museum have a unfortunate history of scrapping exhibits in the past where money has become tight.
They scrapped the Beverley at Hendon, and the last remaining Vulcan B.1 and Victor B.1 bombers in the 1980s/90s.
So you could say some the bad feeling and blame directed towards them about these sad events is understandable.
Given that all the exhibits are now owned officially by the Museum, and not the RAF, is the RAFM in anyway a self-supporting organisation now in terms of exhibit upkeep?
They scrapped the Beverley at Hendon, and the last remaining Vulcan B.1 and Victor B.1 bombers in the 1980s/90s.
So you could say some the bad feeling and blame directed towards them about these sad events is understandable.
Given that all the exhibits are now owned officially by the Museum, and not the RAF, is the RAFM in anyway a self-supporting organisation now in terms of exhibit upkeep?
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John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?
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Originally Posted by Mig15
John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York
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Ouch Dx, seems to have hit a nerve...those of us that know you realise the affinity that you have with the York. The guardians of our aviation heritage should make a call DX...there is one York at Duxford and another at Cosford, both under cover. There are no Brits under cover at this time, scrap one of the Yorks to make way for a Brit...seems fair to me (TIC)
I seem to remember that the RAF had a few Brits as well, but not the one at Cosford. The last operator of G-AOVF was IAS if my memory serves me right. Ironic that it is now in BOAC colours, the forbear of the operator who has now walked away from their aircraft at Cosford. (G-AOVF did operate for BOAC so I can see why it was painted in BOAC colours)
Trouble is that Transport Aircraft tend to be on the large side. If we are looking for a museum to hold them how about a national commercial aircraft museum? Are there any potential sites? Thoughts on a postcard please.
Temps
I seem to remember that the RAF had a few Brits as well, but not the one at Cosford. The last operator of G-AOVF was IAS if my memory serves me right. Ironic that it is now in BOAC colours, the forbear of the operator who has now walked away from their aircraft at Cosford. (G-AOVF did operate for BOAC so I can see why it was painted in BOAC colours)
Trouble is that Transport Aircraft tend to be on the large side. If we are looking for a museum to hold them how about a national commercial aircraft museum? Are there any potential sites? Thoughts on a postcard please.
Temps
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Originally Posted by Mig15
John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York
Britannia
Jetstream
Comet
Flying Flea (Not an Airliner but also not Military!)
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Therefore the following must also be disappearing from Cosford:
Avro York
Britannia
Jetstream
Comet
Flying Flea (Not an Airliner but also not Military!)
Originally Posted by Albert Driver
John Francis of RAFM said, "The Museum is funded by
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?
the Ministry of Defence and MOD money cannot be spent on civil
airliners."
Now, given all the spin currently being put out by BA and RAFM, is this correct?
British Airways aircraft are legitimate objects for their collection.
"THE PURPOSE OF THE ARTEFACTS COLLECTION
11. To build up a material record of the objects used, worn or operated by the personnel of the organisations stated in the policy aim outlined above. The military forces and other bodies covered by that statement to receive priority as below:
[ sub-paras a - k ]
l) British Airways and its predecessors."
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Thanks for that link, Sedburgh. What a wealth of information lies within the RAF Museum's collections policy on the site.
Look at the following: FAFM/DCM/2/6/3/1 ACQUISITION & DISPOSAL POLICY
DISPOSAL
20. Disposal will not be undertaken principally for financial reasons (either to raise money for any purpose or to reduce expenditure).
Look at the following: FAFM/DCM/2/6/3/1 ACQUISITION & DISPOSAL POLICY
DISPOSAL
20. Disposal will not be undertaken principally for financial reasons (either to raise money for any purpose or to reduce expenditure).
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Originally Posted by Mig15
The point I was trying to make was related to Civil Airliners, not if they were flown by the Military.
but does have a very nice paint scheme which I believe is Dan Air but could well be wrong. 
The one at Cosford is complete and a fascinating shade of dark green
I have a photo on my other computer but can't retrieve it at the moment.Temps, your idea of a dedicated museum is an excellent one and one I feel should be explored further. Whilst in NO way decrying the invaluable contribution of the Spitfire to our history, It does seem that almost every museum has at least one of them perhaps to the detriment of other, equally worthy, potential exhibits. It sometimes seems that, like the silly assumption by some, that all pilots were men and no women pilots paid any contribution to the war effort, the only aircraft in the war, with the possible exception of the Lancaster, was the Spitfire. Elvington is the only place, so far, where I have seen a specific memorial to the women.
GCC thanks for the info.
The Jetstream served the RAF for over 20 years in the Navigation training role, first at Finningley and then at Cranwell.
There were retired from service in 2004/5.
There were retired from service in 2004/5.
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The Britannia was an RAF transport as was the Comet and there was an RAF Jetstream at Coford on the pan yesterday in addition to BAe G-BBYM.
G-APFJ had 3 of it's 4 angines lying on the grass, the other was nowhere in sight. G-ARVM looked to be deteriorating as did G-APFJ. The Valiant looked in a bit of a state too. G-AVMO was looking bedraggled and oddly G-ARPH, the Trident looked fine !
If I might add, anyone who doesn't know that the Comet, Britannia and Jetstream served with the RAF has nothin meaningful to add here.
G-APFJ had 3 of it's 4 angines lying on the grass, the other was nowhere in sight. G-ARVM looked to be deteriorating as did G-APFJ. The Valiant looked in a bit of a state too. G-AVMO was looking bedraggled and oddly G-ARPH, the Trident looked fine !
If I might add, anyone who doesn't know that the Comet, Britannia and Jetstream served with the RAF has nothin meaningful to add here.
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Echo
If I might add, anyone who doesn't know that the Comet, Britannia and Jetstream served with the RAF has nothin meaningful to add here.
Mig you are forgiven, as Temps said, I have a special affinity with the York and would really love to be able to see one flying but I fear that is most unlikely to happen.
I hope to be able to visit Cosford again as soon as the children have returned to school - it's much more peaceful then and easier to get to the "Hands-on" exhibits
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DX
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). From previous experience, there are some thread posters who are very swift to pick up on anything they feel is incorrect. Perhaps too quick and too cutting on occasion..... Why, I know not. (not more 'willy waving'!!) As you say, we are always learning and the fact that the aircraft knowledge of some is perhaps less than others should not preclude them for contributing to threads. My sad story involves being the third generation aviation in my family. My three sons are also in the industry as well. Yes, I know, I should have warned them off. However, their level of overall aviation knowledge is excellent and in most cases, far better than mine. Yes, I have created monsters!
The aviation knowledge exhibited on PPRUNE is quite staggering. How some have manged to keep a thread going on Cocpkit/Flight Deck pictures for so long is a testament to the knowlegde of PPRUNERS. The speed in which quite obscure questions are answered never ceases to amaze me and the support given by most in the form of indicating where resources and information can be obtained is, again, excellent.
Whilst flattered that my limited knowledge (and believe me it is VERY limited) has assisted some, I am mindful of the great depth of knowlege of some PPRUNERS. My excuse is 50 years of aviation background. It was inevitable that some 'knowledge' would be retained, albeit limited.
So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.
Temps
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). From previous experience, there are some thread posters who are very swift to pick up on anything they feel is incorrect. Perhaps too quick and too cutting on occasion..... Why, I know not. (not more 'willy waving'!!) As you say, we are always learning and the fact that the aircraft knowledge of some is perhaps less than others should not preclude them for contributing to threads. My sad story involves being the third generation aviation in my family. My three sons are also in the industry as well. Yes, I know, I should have warned them off. However, their level of overall aviation knowledge is excellent and in most cases, far better than mine. Yes, I have created monsters!
The aviation knowledge exhibited on PPRUNE is quite staggering. How some have manged to keep a thread going on Cocpkit/Flight Deck pictures for so long is a testament to the knowlegde of PPRUNERS. The speed in which quite obscure questions are answered never ceases to amaze me and the support given by most in the form of indicating where resources and information can be obtained is, again, excellent.
Whilst flattered that my limited knowledge (and believe me it is VERY limited) has assisted some, I am mindful of the great depth of knowlege of some PPRUNERS. My excuse is 50 years of aviation background. It was inevitable that some 'knowledge' would be retained, albeit limited.
So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.
Temps
Last edited by Tempsford; 16th Apr 2006 at 14:30.
