Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)

[Petet]

Thanks again for the feedback to my queries; your ongoing help is much appreciated.

I am trying to get hold of the squadron's 1966 / 1967 record books from TNA but they are out on loan at the moment. Once they are available hopefully they will provide the dates for the change in classification. I will keep you posted on that matter.

I am just working through the 1981 / 1982 records and learning about IR Routes (such as 498 and 499), the various operations and exercises (such as Red Flag) and the sad demise of the squadron.

I am still struggling to find photographs from the Scampton era, so any help on that front would be useful. I have e-mailed the Scampton Heritage Centre to see if it can help

Regards (and thanks again)

Pete

[Petet]

Apologies, once again, for my lack of knowledge but I had assumed the "shape" was an inert training version of Yellow Sun or WE117.

However, both "shape" and "training rounds" are mentioned in post 1959 suggesting that there is a difference.

Could someone explain the difference to an inquisitive novice and are there photographs anywhere which show the various "live" and "training" versions.

Regards

Pete

[Yellow Sun]

Pete,

Start by going through Brian Burnell's site. When you have completed that you can move on to the RAF Historical Society Journals. I recommend that you read Journals 14, 17A, 26 and 28.

YS

[Petet]

Yellow Sun

Thanks for the leads .... I will read through them and hopefully find the answers to my questions.

Regards (and thanks again)

Pete

[Pontius Navigator]

I am not certain of the difference between shape and training. They might have been the same thing OTOH a Shape might not have had a practice package - barastats, weapons responses etc. I have a friend who is can retired armourer. I won't see him four 2-3 weeks, I will try and remember to ask him.

[Timelord]

I think "shape" was a shorthand / slang term for any form of simulated / training weapon carried that was more properly called a training round. You used to hear of people dropping "shapes" and in later years I myself talked of dropping a "shape" from a Tornado which the boffins called a "proof vehicle".

[Yellow Sun]

"Shapes"

The problem is that the nomenclature is a bit loosely used. Strictly speaking, a "shape" would be just that, a weapon casing filled with inert material so that it was of similar mass and C of G to the real thing and would thus have the same ballistic and aerodynamic characteristics. It's fine if all you want to do is load and unload it, carry it and (possibly) release it.

If you want to do a bit more then you need to develop a "training" or "drill" round. In addition to looking and weighing the same it may enable you to make pre-flight settings and may include a weapon response simulator (WRS) that provides the crew with the appropriate indications. The Vulcan used to carry a separate WRS (WRS 105) that could be used independently of a Shape and or in conjunction with the 28lb practice bomb. The WRS could be pre-programmed with a limit range of faults. All of these rounds were usually referred to as "shapes" although official documents may have used a different nomenclature.

You can then take things a stage further. Nuclear weapons are complex beasts with possibly multiple release modes. You not only need to test the ancillary systems in the design and testing phase but ensure they maintain serviceability when released to the front line. To achieve this you produce a number of rounds that are technically identical in all respects to the operational round except that they contain no fissile material. You would handle and store it in exactly the same way as the real thing and then return it to the manufacturing facility for strip inspection. You may even elect to drop a few for "proof" testing. In the UK these were described as "surveillance rounds". I never actually saw a surveillance round; they were quite rare; and I believe that most were issued to the RN as this was judged the most demanding environment. I suspect that these too would have sometimes been referred to as a "shape".

Then you get to the US weapons"..........er let's not go there, life is confusing enough!

YS

[Petet]

Thanks, as always, for the feedback.

Even though this is a minor subject in the overall scheme of my History of No 35 Squadron 1916 - 1982 project, I am finding it fascinating, albeit frustrating that I can't get the facts straight in my head .... but that is the joy of research.

Working on the basis that 35 Squadron aircraft carried either 28lb, 1000lb or nuclear (or nothing), I guess I need to establish if there was an inert (shape), training round and live round of each of these and (if feasible) work out when each would have been carried.

I will get there .... slowly but surely.

Regards (and thanks again)

Pete

[Pontius Navigator]

28lb was a training round in its own right.
1000lb bomb came is HE, HES or Inert. The latter was blue and was a 'shape' with an operational tail. HE(S) was a rare and perhaps mythical beast, I never saw one but it was in the stats. The requirement to drop two single 1000lb HES in each training period.
Up to 1966 the nuke was YS2. A number may have been dropped inert at West Freugh - I was at Waddo when a lot were dropped to prove the 2H attack profile.

I believe HE(S) was with only a small charge of 50lb HE also known as HE (Sand) or (Substitute) but that is rumour in confidence as I never saw one from 1964.

HE was either Mk 11 or Mk 12 (at that time) identical profile except one was of cast iron for airburst and frag and the other was forged for penetration and cratering. On 35 we certainly dropped a fair number in Cyprus either single or in sticks of up to 14. The earlier picture of Baz Gowling dropping 21x1000 117 tails was for a fire power demo. Our drops were usually pop up to 2,500 ft with 107 tails basically to get rid of stores approaching life expiry. That was 1971-73.

[Petet]

ARMAMENT

I have just obtained a copy of the No. 35 Squadron Record Book, which I now need to work through so that I can put all the bits of the jigsaw together.

A very quick look through shows that the 1000lb bomb was referred to as either "Retarded", "Ballistic" or "Short Look Attack"

I have currently identified the following types being utilised for exercises:

- No. 2 MKIII 25lb
- No 1 MKI and MKII 28lb
- MKII Tail Unit Type 117 1000lb
- MK6 Tail Unit 1000lb
- Type 107 (Short Look Attack) 1000lb

Hopefully, now that I have the ORB, your feedback and the various cross references that you have supplied, I will be able to make sense of it all.

Regards

Pete

[Petet]

BOMBING COMPETITIONS

As mentioned, I am now working through the ORBs (1966 - 1972) and recording some of the information on the History of No 35 squadron website.

One thing which is quite predominant in the record books is the regular bombing competitions and I wondered how these were viewed.

Were they seen by individuals as "just another thing that had to be done" or were they seen as a really important way of demonstrating the quality of crews on your squadron

...... just curious really

[Petet]

FLAMINGO MAGAZINES

Does anyone have copies of the RAF Akrotiri Flamingo Magazines as I note that at least one contains information and photographs of No 35 Squadron whilst it was based there, so I would love a copy (of the copy) for my archives.

Regards

Pete

[Timelord]

Originally Posted by Petet

As mentioned, I am now working through the ORBs (1966 - 1972) and recording some of the information on the History of No 35 squadron website.

One thing which is quite predominant in the record books is the regular bombing competitions and I wondered how these were viewed.

Were they seen by individuals as "just another thing that had to be done" or were they seen as a really important way of demonstrating the quality of crews on your squadron

...... just curious really

Well, to one sort of officer success in a bomb comp was a good career move, to another sort success meant a jolly to the USA for Giant Voice. That plus professional and crew pride meant that most crews took them pretty seriously.

[Pontius Navigator]

It also depended on the competition. For one, around 1967, I was at Waddington and had a good overview. The competition low level route was embargoed. Canberra were tasked with target recce and boxes of imagery duly arrived on the station. Sqn Ldr Wpns decreed that the Waddo sqns would work as a wing. I don't know what Cottesmore did.

From the imagery target offsets were selected and offset values calculated by several crews to get the most accurate values. I don't recall results.

A year or so earlier 3 crews, sqn unk, took part in the SAC bomb comp. Results were displayed on huge blackboard in Cottesmore Ops.

Later, in Cyprus, on 35, one of our nav rads went for a touring holiday around targets and offsets. On the day he parked his Volvo on a target.

[Petet]

RADAR REFLECTIVE DINGHY TRIAL

No. 35 Squadron's ORB contains a few photographs from a Radar Reflective Dinghy Trial that was carried out in 1971.

Again, my curiosity got the better of me, so I had to ask if the trial was successful and, if so, was the dinghy introduced into service?

Regards

Pete

[SpazSinbad]

Originally Posted by BEagle

Still have my Vulcan pilot's handbook somewhere....!!

Avro Vulcan B Mk-2 Aircrew Manual http://aviationarchives.********.com...ew-manual.html [add b l o g s p o t]

https://www.filefactory.com/file/58w...rew-Manual.pdf (40Mb) [that is very funny wording for blagspat]

[Pontius Navigator]

Petet, I remember the trial and AKAIK it involved a single seat dinghy and space blanket. I think it was detectable on the H2S but really needed a proper trial with ASV.

As with many ideas I don't think it progressed.

[Pontius Navigator]

A quick browse of the manual is very informative. I learnt things about the swivel seat of which I have no recollection.

I don't recall the Mk46 chute in use after the swivel seat mod.

I was surprised to see full coverage of the Mk21 regulator and pressure clothing some 5 years after all the aircraft had Mk 17F retrofit.

Now what I would like to see is an ODM that covered the Combat Power settings for the 301.

[Petet]

I am just trying to gain a bit more understanding about No. 35 Squadron during the period 1962 - 1969 and just wanted to double-check to see if it provided QRA throughout that period and whether there are any charts which show if and when there were any heightened alerts (other than for training purpose).

I am also unclear about whether the squadron provided QRA whilst based at Akrotiri (1969 - 1975) or was the role different within NEAF.

Finally, would the squadron have provided QRA at Scampton (1975 - 1982) or had the QRA role ceased by then?

Your usual words of wisdom would be much appreciated

Regards

Pete

[Timelord]

Originally Posted by Petet

I am just trying to gain a bit more understanding about No. 35 Squadron during the period 1962 - 1969 and just wanted to double-check to see if it provided QRA throughout that period and whether there are any charts which show if and when there were any heightened alerts (other than for training purpose).

I am also unclear about whether the squadron provided QRA whilst based at Akrotiri (1969 - 1975) or was the role different within NEAF.

Finally, would the squadron have provided QRA at Scampton (1975 - 1982) or had the QRA role ceased by then?

Your usual words of wisdom would be much appreciated

Regards

Pete

I can't speak to your first two questions but Vulcans had definitely ceased real QRA by 1975. As discussed previously we still did it on exercises.