YMML queue rwy 16 yesterday
Not this guy.
I’ll call ready and taxi towards the holding point at 30kts if no-one else is holding and I can see traffic at 4ish miles in the hope that you’ll see how keen and ready I really am. 😁
I’ll call ready and taxi towards the holding point at 30kts if no-one else is holding and I can see traffic at 4ish miles in the hope that you’ll see how keen and ready I really am. 😁
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Yes we do...we really like nothing more than to get you on your way....
When you approach the holding point at speed and there's one on a 2 and a 1/2 mile final....your all mine....dont give me a square turn on thats all I ask. (2 and a 1/4 from Q)
Single RWY ops is crap, YMEN operations (we love them dearly) restricts what we can do on nearly every RWY.
We're doing our best with what we've got.
When you approach the holding point at speed and there's one on a 2 and a 1/2 mile final....your all mine....dont give me a square turn on thats all I ask. (2 and a 1/4 from Q)
Single RWY ops is crap, YMEN operations (we love them dearly) restricts what we can do on nearly every RWY.
We're doing our best with what we've got.
To be honest here, we get paid by the minute now!!!!!!!! I know blokes that piss around taxing as slllooooooow as possible to rack up time. They can add 3-5 credit hours per roster that way. Fu#k everyone else, I’m clawing back some money is the usual response. As a matter of course, I’m in the taxy to the holding point at speed (safely of course) in order to try and get away. I’d rather get from A to B to C (whatever) and go home. No pissing about here.
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(2 and a 1/4 from Q)
PS I like this conversation where ATC and pilots can chat like they’re in a bar. I think it’s beneficial.
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I do miss the bar chats I used to have when I worked at a smaller regional tower, good for improved understanding of what's happening at both ends. Sadly it happens much more rarely in a big city aerodrome, as understandably, everyone finishes up and just wants to beat the traffic and get home. But it really does help a lot in my humble opinion.
I do miss the bar chats I used to have when I worked at a smaller regional tower, good for improved understanding of what's happening at both ends. Sadly it happens much more rarely in a big city aerodrome, as understandably, everyone finishes up and just wants to beat the traffic and get home. But it really does help a lot in my humble opinion.
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Just to continue the bar room chat ….
When a pilot calculates their take-off performance figures using the Onboard Performance Tool for runway 27, they see a little note at the bottom of the page that says;
‘
and some of them remember back to the last time they read their Training manual to a specific sentence that says;
and then they start to shiver thinking about how grumpy ATC will get if they do that while someone is at 900ft on final, so that flick to the next page of the OPT to see how much fat they have in their figures.
If they are in a typical 24K 737 at 73 tonne, and the runway is wet with no wind, 15 degrees, 1013, they will see that it will take them 2330m to accelerate and then stop and that the ASDA is 2346m. They have 16m up their sleeves predicated on the 90 degree line up. They then start biting their finger nails as they balance the very low probability of having to reject at V1 against the orderly flow of traffic and attracting the ire of the controller and a weary eye roll from their f/o. It’s about this time that they remember the sentence from the Operations Manual that states;
and wonder if that sentence is comparing a standing start with brakes applied v’s a rolling start from the same position, or if it’s comparing a 90degree line up with more relaxed rolling line up? The subject has never been discussed with them in all their years of flying training and they simply aren’t sure, so they take the conservative route, and the ire, and the eye rolls, and do the best they can on the day to meet their responsibilities.
Does any of that sound plausible or familiar to you guys? I think it’s the kind of balancing act that goes on and with a broad spectrum of personality types in the industry you will always get folks that are more conservative and process driven than the average. We can see it with individual controllers sometimes as well.
When a pilot calculates their take-off performance figures using the Onboard Performance Tool for runway 27, they see a little note at the bottom of the page that says;
‘
This runway has 90 degree line up turn’
Turns of 90 degrees or moreInitiate the turn as the intersecting taxiway centerline (or intended exit point) approaches approximately the center of the side window.
If they are in a typical 24K 737 at 73 tonne, and the runway is wet with no wind, 15 degrees, 1013, they will see that it will take them 2330m to accelerate and then stop and that the ASDA is 2346m. They have 16m up their sleeves predicated on the 90 degree line up. They then start biting their finger nails as they balance the very low probability of having to reject at V1 against the orderly flow of traffic and attracting the ire of the controller and a weary eye roll from their f/o. It’s about this time that they remember the sentence from the Operations Manual that states;
Flight test and analysis prove that the change in takeoff roll
distance due to the rolling takeoff procedure is negligible when compared to a
standing takeoff.
distance due to the rolling takeoff procedure is negligible when compared to a
standing takeoff.
Does any of that sound plausible or familiar to you guys? I think it’s the kind of balancing act that goes on and with a broad spectrum of personality types in the industry you will always get folks that are more conservative and process driven than the average. We can see it with individual controllers sometimes as well.
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Thanks Framer,
Thats interesting information, again I guess another reason why operations happen at the rate they do on occasion.
Just for what its worth RWY27 only in IMC is a nightmare, and why most departures are an immediate takeoff.
With minimal spacing and the prospect of an aircraft missing the rapid, do I line one up...do I miss the gap, having a go round with one rotating is not a good prospect....and with the thought of being beaten with a stick most will sit out and the queue grows longer.
More concrete at Melbourne is a solution, realistically though it's 5 years away.
Thats interesting information, again I guess another reason why operations happen at the rate they do on occasion.
Just for what its worth RWY27 only in IMC is a nightmare, and why most departures are an immediate takeoff.
With minimal spacing and the prospect of an aircraft missing the rapid, do I line one up...do I miss the gap, having a go round with one rotating is not a good prospect....and with the thought of being beaten with a stick most will sit out and the queue grows longer.
More concrete at Melbourne is a solution, realistically though it's 5 years away.
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Originally Posted by Framer
Does any of that sound plausible or familiar to you guys?
Yep! We had some overseas-trained so and so who said just use the yellow line to line up and take off. ATC probably loved him.
Originally Posted by Bug Smasher Basher
And that’s why we’re known as Austronauts.
That last consideration comes from Boeing. This is an early 737 FTCM; I stand to be corrected if it has been removed:
So what's your "Oztronorts" point, BSS?
On "Immediate Departures", apart from the two radio calls in AIP COM, this term is not mentioned or explained anywhere. Of course, we can delay our roll by calling "Line Up XX seconds". The clear implication is that if we don't say that, then we won't be stopping. So why is "Immediate Departure" even mentioned? If there are ditherers or stoppers, then AIP should be edited to make it clearer about what is expected by ATC, or the company should be growled-at by the ATC wheels.
"Line up runway xxx, expedite" is probably the better option. Once cleared for take off it should be done without delay in any case, unless a delay has been approved. The phrasiology used for takeoff and landing clearance should never be altered, there are reasons its an exact wording. If crews are taking excessive time to line up and depart then a report should be generated so that the airline can deal with that crew or procedure creating the problem.
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Jesus, only Australians could complicate the process of taking off so much 
.
.
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For August, there were around 410 return flights between Australia and the US - United operated 113 (27.6 percent) of those with an average LF of 75.4 percent; the QF group operated 213 (52.0 percent) with an average LF of 82.0 percent.
In terms of pax, again for August, there were in aggregate something like 134,059 pax moved between the two countries - United carried 47,218 (35.2 percent); the QF group carried 89,013 (66.4 percent
In terms of pax, again for August, there were in aggregate something like 134,059 pax moved between the two countries - United carried 47,218 (35.2 percent); the QF group carried 89,013 (66.4 percent
I'm biased.
United got me home during covid when Qantas was busy ripping the tax payer off for jobkeeper payments. They got me home when Qantas couldn't or wouldn't. They got me home on a 787 not an old A330. They got me home during a particularly stressful time, unless you 'were there' you wouldn't understand what it was like (forgive me if you 'were there'). Family members were stuck in other countries for months, one of them over a year. They didn't get home with Qantas.
So United are my new national airline. OK, they broke a guitar or two, but to my knowledge their CEO isn't an insider trading thief. That's important to me.
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Whilst that is a phrase you hear sometimes and doesn't exist in the Australian AIP, just be aware that it is standard phraseology in a lot of other places, especially SE asia (eg Singapore)
Do you entirely read and comply with radio phraseology requirements of every individual foreign state you go to? I'd be impressed if you, or really anyone did. I'd probably give those blokes a break.
Separately, as for the line up orbital checklist, what the. Ozstranughts indeed. Just turn the thing and get going, its not hard. There is a hell of a lot more performance variation in the 'average passenger weights' than in worrying about 30m of lineup allowance.
Do you entirely read and comply with radio phraseology requirements of every individual foreign state you go to? I'd be impressed if you, or really anyone did. I'd probably give those blokes a break.
Separately, as for the line up orbital checklist, what the. Ozstranughts indeed. Just turn the thing and get going, its not hard. There is a hell of a lot more performance variation in the 'average passenger weights' than in worrying about 30m of lineup allowance.
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