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Fake management at JQHQ

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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:11
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Foxhat is spot on with his assessment of life on the A320/321 based out of Sydney. In the long run it is unworkable. There are several factors that cause this- the horrific car parking arrangement, the mostly 4 sector days due to Sydney's geography in the network, the cost of living making flexi-line unviable unless you are independently wealthy, and so on. The truth is that most of these problems are far worse in Sydney (and to a lesser extent Melbourne) than the other bases.

If you are on the 320/321 and can get out of SYD/MEL it's a different beast altogether. Ditto the 787 in any base (provided you don't commute). I would not recommend SYD NB to anyone in the long run who can not afford to go flexi-line.

Regarding CAO 48.1/ FRMS, the majority of the NB duties conducted out of SYD will probably still be legal, with the exception of maybe some 4 sector 0500 sign-ons and the trans-con BoC's. By the way the longest BoC done on the JQ NB fleet is CNS-PER-CNS. Sign on as late as 2000 and sign off 0715. 9:20 stick time (with the aircraft flying at a high cost index to plan within the 9:30 FDD limit!). It is a disgrace, and despite a huge number of fatigue reports submitted by pilots each month regarding trans-con BOC, management denial of the fatigue problem, combined with weakness and inaction on behalf of the regulator allow these operations to continue.

Back to GS- she made her bed when she took a sweet-heart endorsement on the 787, and never made an attempt to understand the Narrow Body operation, which makes up most of JQ's flying. She does not understand what most Jetstar line pilots have to deal with, and even if she did, it would be beneath her. "You're down in the weeds- I'm big picture!" - she was reported to have said to a pilot raising a concern about their job. Tells you everything really.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:52
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Wear the Foxhat:

A lot of your concerns I sympathise with. The company indeed does do little to mitigate the effects of poor rostering. Lack of ground staff is a common concern and frustration that we all experience.

Many of your concerns however would not be alleviated by going elsewhere though, at least that's my view, better to try to work within the system and report some of the things that really are within the company's control.

Runway changes and checking flap settings are issues around flight safety that have squat diddly to do with any level of management other than their capacity to ensure safe procedures are in place to mitigate the risk, which I believe is now done quite well. As far as I understand this would not improve if you were to go over the road but I'm happy to be corrected.

I have had a pretty positive experience with 'Just culture' but I cannot speak for others, this would indeed always be a very subjective thing of course.

The job is indeed stressful at times and will always be so, its not all the fault of your employer though. There are plenty of less stressful jobs around and it gets to us all at times but I think things have improved a lot since I started and I therefore try to look on the positive side of things.

As for the 3 check 787 appointments, at least I know what everyone is complaining about now, but that's secret squirrel wide body stuff, I'd always be the last to know. Does sound a bit dodgy.

Last edited by Willie Nelson; 23rd Mar 2017 at 23:54. Reason: Typo.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Does submitting a fatigue Oscar come back with the same:
"Thank you for submitting an OSCAR in relation to fatigue. Your OSCAR now constitutes data which is used as part of our FRMS data pack for trending and risk analysis of fatigue events within JANZ operations?"

Last few I did (a little while ago now) this was all I ever got back. Clearly taking fatigue levels seriously.....
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:58
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Originally Posted by GA Driver
Does submitting a fatigue Oscar come back with the same:
"Thank you for submitting an OSCAR in relation to fatigue. Your OSCAR now constitutes data which is used as part of our FRMS data pack for trending and risk analysis of fatigue events within JANZ operations?"

Last few I did (a little while ago now) this was all I ever got back. Clearly taking fatigue levels seriously.....
Yes GA driver, they all seem to come back like that these days. Of course Jetstar knows about the fatigue problem that exists in its operation. It is also obvious that the solution to this problem will cost money. Better rosters, overnighting crews in Perth, augmenting long BoC's on the 787 and proper crew rest all cost money.

Will Jetstar spend this money if they are not forced to by CASA? Anyone who has been in this company for more than 5 minutes knows the answer to that one.

What chance do a flight ops management team watching their back for where the next knife will come from have of successfully arguing a case for change to senior management and the Board? Do they even see a problem to begin with?

Will CASA act to reduce the current fatigue risk present in JQ's operations? A little research into the circumstances surrounding the 'resignation' of former CASA DAS Mark Skidmore last year- and the 'extension' of the CAO 48 exemption combined with a 'review' of CAO 48.1 the minute his foot was out the door could provide some insight into the likelihood of that happening in the near future.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:04
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CNS-PER-CNS BOC?

I guess if these are already planned within 10 mins of the limit any delays in PER would mean a cancellation of the service, or a diversion en route should unforeseen circumstances mean busting these limits.

Knowing what PER is like from personal experience, I'd hazard a guess and say a delay of more than 10 mins would happen quite a lot. I guess these diversions/cancellations due to exceeding stick limits happen very often then. If not, why not?

Are guys knowingly breaking the rules? If so I'm sure the company appreciates your efforts, but good luck keeping your licence if CASA gets wind of it.

There is one simple bullet proof answer to all of this.

JUST SAY NO!

You have a legal requirement to refuse to fly if you feel fatigued. Use it!

The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:19
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Don am in total agreement.

QH SH pilots lose money and so do JQ if they don't extend.With MBT for many patterns, gaining adequate rest is nigh on impossible, the threat is always there that next day pay will be lost... ..How the 'regulator' ever allowed loss of income to be ignored considering the subtlety applied by management was a disgrace.

If one considers the potential PERSONAL liability from operating outside the rules ie CAO 48 in its various guises, any extension place the onus fairly at the pilot's feet.

Just say no. Or simply ask the company for an indemnity in writing from any resulting incident or accident. As happened with me a long time ago, they will never give you one! So without I would never extend.

Roster construction is an issue that needs urgent addressing, which CAO 48.1 was to address, but given the can kick by the 'regulator' it is pretty easy on whose side they fall...
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:20
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The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.
Oh, will somebody buy the "don" a drink or two. Summed it all up in just over 20 words.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:28
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Originally Posted by IsDon
CNS-PER-CNS BOC?

I guess if these are already planned within 10 mins of the limit any delays in PER would mean a cancellation of the service, or a diversion en route should unforeseen circumstances mean busting these limits.

Knowing what PER is like from personal experience, I'd hazard a guess and say a delay of more than 10 mins would happen quite a lot. I guess these diversions/cancellations due to exceeding stick limits happen very often then. If not, why not?

Are guys knowingly breaking the rules? If so I'm sure the company appreciates your efforts, but good luck keeping your licence if CASA gets wind of it.

There is one simple bullet proof answer to all of this.

JUST SAY NO!

You have a legal requirement to refuse to fly if you feel fatigued. Use it!

The only reason you're rostered the way you are is that you continue to put up with it. Grow a pair.

IsDon, you are 50% correct. If 90% of pilots 'grew a pair' and called fatigued instead of operating shifts they know to be fatiguing then our problems here would be resolved very quickly indeed.

That is not going to happen. In my experience only 5-10% of a given population will have the guts to stand up and do something about a problem themselves. The main reasons that pilots often won't call fatigued for these flights are:

a) they fear being labeled a 'trouble maker' thus affecting their career
b) they are tight-arses and don't want to lose the overtime

This is why you are also 50% wrong. It is incumbent upon the regulator to ensure that pilots cannot be rostered to fly shifts that are known to be fatiguing. The regulator has tried to palm this responsibility off to the operator, however we can all see how deeply conflicted that arrangement is.

Both the regulator and the operator have an intimate understanding of fatigue issues in the industry. God forbid, if there is a fatigue-related accident in the Australian airline industry due to their inaction they will both have blood on their hands.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:44
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Originally Posted by Y0SSARIAN
That is not going to happen. In my experience only 5-10% of a given population will have the guts to stand up and do something about a problem themselves. The main reasons that pilots often won't call fatigued for these flights are:

a) they fear being labeled a 'trouble maker' thus affecting their career
b) they are tight-arses and don't want to lose the overtime

This is why you are also 50% wrong.
Then 90-95% of your crew are gutless whimps.

I'm not 50% correct on that.

While the regulator and the company are equally duplicitous in your scandalous crewing, take a stab at who'll wear 100% of the blame should an incident happen. CASA will say the pilots were undoubtedly fatigued, although they failed to stand them selves down. JQ will say we have a robust culture of fatigue management in place, or some other obfuscating alternative to shoot the blame right to the pilots involved. Summarily dismissed under Just Culture.

You guys are playing Russian Roullete with your careers and your passengers lives.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:03
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Originally Posted by IsDon
Then 90-95% of your crew are gutless whimps.

I'm not 50% correct on that.

While the regulator and the company are equally duplicitous in your scandalous crewing, take a stab at who'll wear 100% of the blame should an incident happen. CASA will say the pilots were undoubtedly fatigued, although they failed to stand them selves down. JQ will say we have a robust culture of fatigue management in place, or some other obfuscating alternative to shoot the blame right to the pilots involved. Summarily dismissed under Just Culture.

You guys are playing Russian Roullete with your careers and your passengers lives.
No you are not 50% wrong about that, although calling them 'gutless whimps' might not be the best way to go as you will find the same 90-95% in any company under similar circumstances. It's called human nature, and the minority who have the balls to stand up know this better than anyone!
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:08
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Originally Posted by Y0SSARIAN
No you are not 50% wrong about that, although calling them 'gutless whimps' might not be the best way to go as you will find the same 90-95% in any company under similar circumstances. It's called human nature, and the minority who have the balls to stand up know this better than anyone!
Well then you need to work on the 90-95% that are clearly causing this problem.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:53
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The assumption that isDon is making is that the system works as it should. In that you can make a big call and cancel a flight and the union, company procedures, and the regulator etc will back you up. Companies and the regulator are interested in nothing else other than covering their arse. Don't forget too the whole fatigue issue was dealt with last time by the imfamous 'toughen up princesses' response.

It is up to the Regulator to regulate, and from what I have seen they do not have the guts to take it on.
The other problem with fatigue issues is that companies can wheel out the whole 'illegal industrial action' routine. Given that it is such a fickled issue its very difficult to deal with as an individual
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:58
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
The assumption that isDon is making is that the system works as it should. In that you can make a big call and cancel a flight and the union, company procedures, and the regulator etc will back you up. Companies and the regulator are interested in nothing else other than covering their arse. Don't forget too the whole fatigue issue was dealt with last time by the imfamous 'toughen up princesses' response.

It is up to the Regulator to regulate, and from what I have seen they do not have the guts to take it on.
Well Nev, if you can't beat em, join em.

If the regulator and the company are all about arse covering then better get with the program and do some of that as well, lest you be the scapegoat in a mishap.

The only way to do that is to say no.

I know GS well from the 767. Not a fan. What I do know for absolute certainty is that she has absolutely no tendency to stick her neck out if she might wear any risk, legally or otherwise.

If a hypothetical pilot were to call fatigued and cancel a service as a result, do you really think she would put her head in a regulatory noose by taking punitive action against that pilot? Not a chance. If she knew what's good for her she'd support said pilot to the hilt. She really has no choice.

If you make an honest call on fatigue you are legally, morally and ethically bullet proof. To fly fatigued you're on your own.

Last edited by IsDon; 24th Mar 2017 at 03:10.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 03:09
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The other issue with calling fatigued is that you can't call in an anticipation of fatigue. I am at a level I would call fatigued at the time I am in the flight deck on the return leg. I submit OSCARS stating that every time I do a BOC. When I sign on for the duty I am FFD. When I take controlled rest on the flight deck I have mitigated the effects of fatigue. That the rosters should not be planned in the first place is the responsibility of the company and the regulator. To simply state that Jetstar pilots should "grow a pair" is very easy for IsDon to state from the flight deck of a widebody working for a legacy carrier. It also ignores the industrial system in which we work where concerted action to call in fatigue and cancel flights on a regular basis could be interpreted as unprotected industrial action. Collectively Jetstar pilots have rejected the Jetstar Group contract, voted down a pathetic EBA and through the system of OSCARs seen the worst BOC removed. Fatiguing rosters are not just a problem in Jetstar, but if other threads on Pprune are looked at, its a world wide problem so I suppose the world wide pilot community should "grow a pair".
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 03:18
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
The other issue with calling fatigued is that you can't call in an anticipation of fatigue:
This is not correct. If you have not had enough sleep to complete the rostered duty safely you are not only able to but are required to notifiy the company that you are unfit for duty due to fatigue. What you have been told is an old management chestnut designed to discourage you calling fatigued.

Having said that I agree with the rest of your post.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 04:23
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I absolutely agree with you, if you are fatigued at the start of the duty then you are UFD for the whole duty. What I am saying is that you can't call in fatigued for the way you will feel at the back end of the duty. If you haven't been able to get adequate rest prior to a duty (sick family members, or roadworks outside your house) then you should call in UFD.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 04:51
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Originally Posted by Willie Nelson
Wear the Foxhat:

Runway changes and checking flap settings are issues around flight safety that have squat diddly to do with any level of management other than their capacity to ensure safe procedures are in place to mitigate the risk, which I believe is now done quite well...

The job is indeed stressful at times and will always be so, its not all the fault of your employer though. There are plenty of less stressful jobs around and it gets to us all at times but I think things have improved a lot since I started and I therefore try to look on the positive side of things.
I know many of the things we do are expected as professional pilots, for example rebrief and flap / data setting check after rwy change. Ive got no beef with that or similar. What I was highlighting is the job is busy enough as professional pilots, without all the decisions management have made to load us up even more. Why do I need the leading hand to attend the cockpit to tell me he has done his job, why can’t this airline after 18 months work out how many people are onboard. Why do I need multiple different zone reports, one correct one will be fine. How hard is it to have marshallers available, stairs on arrival, engineering checks complete when I get to the aircraft for the first flight of the day.

Why am I inundated with rubbish FSO’s, notams, intap’s.It looks like an arse covering exercise from people who have no care for the people who work at the front line.

I get that Syd is 4 sector central, but why make turnaround times unachievable, factor in time for A/C swaps, MEL O procedures. Yes, I choose to live here, is it practical if all Syd crew take the advice of some posters on her and move base or leave? Does that solve anything? How about practical fixes.

If management were serious, they would address the multitude of rostering issues, a preferential bidding system, open time, access to annual leave, access to flexi line without making you wait 12 months. They could recognise that long duty periods with a car park out the back of bourke is counterproductive. The rostering rules we work under weren’t designed with 45 minute commute from car park to terminal, nor 1hr plus commute from home to car park in mind. Factoring in those realities should change maximum duty periods.

To do any of that, they would have to be engaged. And I don’t mean more yammer, FB or notes from Georgina. I mean face to face, stand infront of the troops and tell us what you are doing. Multiple meetings in all the bases so pilots can get heard.

Instead we have an absent Group CEO, Invisible JANZ CEO, Chief pilot who’s never taken any interest in what the NB pilots life is like. Disengagement to the MAX.

No management bulldust, no bluesky this, no aspirational that, no endeavour to do this, project to do that, no looking into this. I want changes, I want recognition that the current work practices are unsustainable and an iron clad commitment to change it NOW. Not in 6 months, not ‘we are recruiting pilots to fix the problem’, we’ll have more pilot in 6 months. Because you wont, pilots are leaving quicker than recruitment can keep up.

No more ‘diversity’, no more ‘celebrating our stars’, no more propaganda in the weekly wrap. I don’t care. ‘We’ve noticed you haven’t logged into Bravo’ No $#@& Sherlock, I don’t care. Instead we get management pilots awarding eachother bravo awards – yes Flipper that’s YOU. So disconnected from the front line it aint funny.

RUN THE AIRLINE. FIX THE ROSTER, LEAVE, FATIGUE, ROSTER SWAPS, RDO’s.

Chook raffles are run better than this joint.

Last edited by Wear the Foxhat; 25th Mar 2017 at 01:32. Reason: I've been told that said manager's name is "Flipper" Highly intelligent but unable to communicate with humans.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 11:02
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Fatiguing rosters are not just a problem in Jetstar, but if other threads on PPRuNe are looked at, its a world wide problem so I suppose the world wide pilot community should "grow a pair".
After 23 years in the industry, mostly in NZ and Australia, I think ' the world wide pilot community growing a pair' is potentially on the cards.
I think that 99.9% of the folk regulating and running the industry literally don't understand that current practices are shortening the lives of modern day Airline pilots and the pilots can feel it and their wives / husbands are sick of them being grumpy sick w@nkers.
There are some Airlines like Air NZ and Qantas where pilots can have a nice lifestyle but the majority of Airline pilots are knackered.
The FlyDubai crash could happen in this part of the world. After hearing about the CNS-PER return BOC I'm surprised it hasn't already. We are running on luck. A confusing instrumentation failure at the end of one of these duties could likely end badly.
I can see a time not too far away where the unions are pressured by their members to join together and put an end to the rostering practices regardless of what the regulator says.
Even if we just adopted the national truck drivers legislation around fatigue many of these shifts would disappear.
The other issue is driving home after the shift. I know of cabin crew who have lost their lives. We have to be mindful of that too.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 11:46
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Wear the Foxhat,

You have hit the nail on the head so well.

Plenty of lip service, but nothing changes except the 787 management it seems. The 320 fleet is the backbone, yep BS rostering, leave slots both AL/LSL not available and the list goes on and on.

People on the sidelines can judge/comment we need to grow a pair, but I do recall an event several years ago in September that apparently was remembered by plenty.

As the saying goes if you kick the nicest dog enough times, it will bite.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 15:38
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Originally Posted by Wear the Foxhat
I know many of the things we do are expected as professional pilots, for example rebrief and flap / data setting check after rwy change. Ive got no beef with that or similar. What I was highlighting is the job is busy enough as professional pilots, without all the decisions management have made to load us up even more. Why do I need the leading hand to attend the cockpit to tell me he has done his job, why can’t this airline after 18 months work out how many people are onboard. Why do I need multiple different zone reports, one correct one will be fine. How hard is it to have marshallers available, stairs on arrival, engineering checks complete when I get to the aircraft for the first flight of the day.

Why am I inundated with rubbish FSO’s, notams, intap’s.It looks like an arse covering exercise from people who have no care for the people who work at the front line.

I get that Syd is 4 sector central, but why make turnaround times unachievable, factor in time for A/C swaps, MEL O procedures. Yes, I choose to live here, is it practical if all Syd crew take the advice of some posters on her and move base or leave? Does that solve anything? How about practical fixes.

If management were serious, they would address the multitude of rostering issues, a preferential bidding system, open time, access to annual leave, access to flexi line without making you wait 12 months. They could recognise that long duty periods with a car park out the back of bourke is counterproductive. The rostering rules we work under weren’t designed with 45 minute commute from car park to terminal, nor 1hr plus commute from home to car park in mind. Factoring in those realities should change maximum duty periods.

To do any of that, they would have to be engaged. And I don’t mean more yammer, FB or notes from Georgina. I mean face to face, stand infront of the troops and tell us what you are doing. Multiple meetings in all the bases so pilots can get heard.

Instead we have an absent Group CEO, Invisible JANZ CEO, Chief pilot who’s never taken any interest in what the NB pilots life is like. Disengagement to the MAX.

No management bulldust, no bluesky this, no aspirational that, no endeavour to do this, project to do that, no looking into this. I want changes, I want recognition that the current work practices are unsustainable and an iron clad commitment to change it NOW. Not in 6 months, not ‘we are recruiting pilots to fix the problem’, we’ll have more pilot in 6 months. Because you wont, pilots are leaving quicker than recruitment can keep up.

No more ‘diversity’, no more ‘celebrating our stars’, no more propaganda in the weekly wrap. I don’t care. ‘We’ve noticed you haven’t logged into Bravo’ No $#@& Sherlock, I don’t care. Instead we get management pilots awarding eachother bravo awards – yes D Mc that’s YOU. So disconnected from the front line it aint funny.

RUN THE AIRLINE. FIX THE ROSTER, LEAVE, FATIGUE, ROSTER SWAPS, RDO’s.

Chook raffles are run better than this joint.
Wear the Fox Hat for President
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