Cunderdin ticks all the Perth Alternate boxes...
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In reality the money would be better spent on building a viable alternate in the Margaret River Region which would probably get more use as an airport rather than spending it on a place noone has ever heard of that's never going to see a jet otherwise.
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Keep on dreaming. The "plan" is just like Ascent Aviations website, half-baked and only one-twentieth the way to completion. Who is going to go 150kms East of Perth to deliver freight, and how many people do they think will "catch a train to Perth". The current average pax load for the Prospector train is 32 pax, each trip!
How will this struggling rail network cope with hundreds of pax just off a couple of flights??
The 2-car Prospector train set can only carry 100 pax maximum, luggage is limited to 1 x 20kgs and 1 x 7kgs hand luggage, no bikes, and strict restrictions on any other freight or luggage.
There's not enough Prospector car sets available at present, to meet any major increase in demand without a huge investment in more and larger car sets.
Even the traincar storage at East Perth is incredibly restricted at present, with little room for expansion.
A "high speed" rail link would have to involve a totally new rail line, the current rail line was installed at huge cost in the late 1960's, and involved substantial numbers of deep cuttings through solid granite - and with many curves, a lot of which are incapable of high speed.
There are quite a number of speed-restricted curves on the line from Perth to Northam. It's not until the line straightens out and flattens out beyond Meckering and Cunderdin that speeds of 160kmh can be attained.
Transwa WDA/WDB/WDC class railcars
If YPPH is fogged in, YCUN normally will be, too. In fact, I'll wager a tenner that YCUN gets more fog more often than YPPH.
I'm speaking from extensive experience of having lived and worked in Perth and the Wheatbelt for many decades, and having to put up with many pea-soup fogs on many mornings.
You can get some pretty turbulent weather in the W.A wheatbelt, too - and if it's turbulent in Perth, it will very likely be just as turbulent at YCUN.
The bottom line is, how many major diversions from YPPH have taken place over the last, say 2 decades - and how are the savings going to appear in the above plan.
This plan is classic "float a balloon and see now many go 'ooh-ahhh!'" stuff, just to see if the company can suck in a pile of loose investor monies, so directors can keep themselves in new Beemers and Mercs and plush offices in West Perth, with all the "ancillary benefits" of long boozy lunches in prime restaurants, along with substantial other "company perks".
Believe me, I've been around the mining and corporate scene in WA long enough to spot any amount of dodgy "blue sky" proposals that never flew (excuse the pun!).
How will this struggling rail network cope with hundreds of pax just off a couple of flights??
The 2-car Prospector train set can only carry 100 pax maximum, luggage is limited to 1 x 20kgs and 1 x 7kgs hand luggage, no bikes, and strict restrictions on any other freight or luggage.
There's not enough Prospector car sets available at present, to meet any major increase in demand without a huge investment in more and larger car sets.
Even the traincar storage at East Perth is incredibly restricted at present, with little room for expansion.
A "high speed" rail link would have to involve a totally new rail line, the current rail line was installed at huge cost in the late 1960's, and involved substantial numbers of deep cuttings through solid granite - and with many curves, a lot of which are incapable of high speed.
There are quite a number of speed-restricted curves on the line from Perth to Northam. It's not until the line straightens out and flattens out beyond Meckering and Cunderdin that speeds of 160kmh can be attained.
Transwa WDA/WDB/WDC class railcars
If YPPH is fogged in, YCUN normally will be, too. In fact, I'll wager a tenner that YCUN gets more fog more often than YPPH.
I'm speaking from extensive experience of having lived and worked in Perth and the Wheatbelt for many decades, and having to put up with many pea-soup fogs on many mornings.
You can get some pretty turbulent weather in the W.A wheatbelt, too - and if it's turbulent in Perth, it will very likely be just as turbulent at YCUN.
The bottom line is, how many major diversions from YPPH have taken place over the last, say 2 decades - and how are the savings going to appear in the above plan.
This plan is classic "float a balloon and see now many go 'ooh-ahhh!'" stuff, just to see if the company can suck in a pile of loose investor monies, so directors can keep themselves in new Beemers and Mercs and plush offices in West Perth, with all the "ancillary benefits" of long boozy lunches in prime restaurants, along with substantial other "company perks".
Believe me, I've been around the mining and corporate scene in WA long enough to spot any amount of dodgy "blue sky" proposals that never flew (excuse the pun!).
If it is fully taxpayer funded, you're basically trading taxpayer dollars for increased airline profits. Developing the point, the use of the alternate is irrelevent if the point of it is to enhance airlines' bottom line. They're not paying for it. We are. They're reaping the benefit.
So spending a heap of money on Cunderdin to make it an alternate for large jets. Exactly how are they going to make money on it again?
Thread Starter
negate the need for aircraft coming from the indian ocean and accoss the nullabor to tanker fuel due to legalities. That will save the airlines big money and make Perth more viable.
The question is, with Cat III shortly to be available at Perth, how many actual diversions will occur, and will the tankering of an occasional extra 2 hours-odd of fuel for Learmonth/3 hours for ADL offset the huge cost of what would be effectively an international airport that will never be used?
The question is, with Cat III shortly to be available at Perth, how many actual diversions will occur, and will the tankering of an occasional extra 2 hours-odd of fuel for Learmonth/3 hours for ADL offset the huge cost of what would be effectively an international airport that will never be used?
Also for when another alt just isn't carried and a last minute need arises. But that never happens in Perth tho eh
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LHR-PER is likely to be payload limited every sector holding YPLM or YPAD as an alternate, and probably not economically viable. Another consideration is the frequency of a TEMPO, once again reducing yield.
The real killer is departing on the basis of clear forecast, given the sheer sector length, statistically you are simply more exposed to a adverse change in the forecast.
Given the flight plan is likely overhead Columbo and then heading south to pick up the jet, there won't be many alternates available, and the decision point is going to be quite a few hours before PER leaving a large window of exposure to a change in the PER forecast without a close alternate. The DP may even be before the ability to get a TTF to cover the arrival time.
Here is good Great Circle map of the LHR-PER route with 1400nm range rings from Jakarta (WIII) and Learmonth. As I said, it is likely the actual flight plan will probably be well south of the great circle track after Columbo, and then almost due east.
A guess the bottom line given the geometry is that this probably about minimising the number of early diversions when the TTF ends up being clear, thus maximising payload. Just a working hypothesis based on a bit of guesswork.
The real killer is departing on the basis of clear forecast, given the sheer sector length, statistically you are simply more exposed to a adverse change in the forecast.
Given the flight plan is likely overhead Columbo and then heading south to pick up the jet, there won't be many alternates available, and the decision point is going to be quite a few hours before PER leaving a large window of exposure to a change in the PER forecast without a close alternate. The DP may even be before the ability to get a TTF to cover the arrival time.
Here is good Great Circle map of the LHR-PER route with 1400nm range rings from Jakarta (WIII) and Learmonth. As I said, it is likely the actual flight plan will probably be well south of the great circle track after Columbo, and then almost due east.
A guess the bottom line given the geometry is that this probably about minimising the number of early diversions when the TTF ends up being clear, thus maximising payload. Just a working hypothesis based on a bit of guesswork.
Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 6th Feb 2017 at 02:28. Reason: map image added
Perhaps the internationals, but interstate flights can use all the other ports: Gerro, Kal, Meeka, Learmonth. A330 could carry Auckland?
If so, then yes, the A330 can carry ADL as an alternate for PER. We regularly do it from HKG in the winter months, but if the weather's above the alternate minima then we carry 'Island Reserve' (ie 120 minutes' holding) in lieu of an alternate. A big problem with using ADL as an alternate for PER is the lack of enroute alternates between the two. It's not so bad if Kalgoorlie and Woomera are available, but if either one isn't suitable due to weather then we have to carry much more fuel for the diversion to cater for a depressurisation/engine failure. In that event, it's not unusual to land in PER with over 20 tonnes of fuel in the tanks!
Did "expert" GT mention the allocated 10 million from the Commonwealth and 46 million from the state Royalties for Regions for Busselton airport last year ...yes, the airport that many of us taxpayers aren't allowed to access because we are "training"...perhaps in case we have a collision with a tumbleweed.
At least at the old Busselton airport the cows were friendly.
At least at the old Busselton airport the cows were friendly.
Thread Starter
Plan to arrive at Lunchtime. Very, very rare to have an Alternate requirement sprung on you then. Besides, a 787 isn't that big. KGI or GET could be set up as an alternate/emergency for much less dosh than building Cunderdin, surely?
Just making the point that, from my understanding, the A330 has "tons" of alternate options before payload is restricted, unlike the longer international flights coming in.
If the "last minute need" is fog-related, just go ahead and Cat 3... been done before at Perth and other places. 
If it's TS-related, go to Pearce.
If it's because Perth is not available eg prang, go to Pearce.
"But Sir, the forecast changed and I had no other options.".
Originally Posted by Buzzbox
Auckland, I think not! Did you mean Adelaide?
Originally Posted by Maggot
Also for when another alt just isn't carried and a last minute need arises.
If it's TS-related, go to Pearce.
If it's because Perth is not available eg prang, go to Pearce.
"But Sir, the forecast changed and I had no other options.".
Originally Posted by Curtain Twitcher
LHR-PER is likely to be payload limited every sector holding YPLM or YPAD as an alternate...
LHR-PER is likely to be payload limited every sector holding YPLM or YPAD as an alternate...
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Plan to arrive at Lunchtime. Very, very rare to have an Alternate requirement sprung on you then.
I have no idea if this is going to be the case, but based on the geometry it would be similar to the SIN - PER scenario where YPLM was our only option and we would sweat on getting a clear TTF just prior to the DP.
Thread Starter
The West, 6Feb17
Parties back new airport plan
By Geoffrey Thomas
The proposed $200 million upgrade of Cunderdin airport to handle emergency diversions from Perth has received unusual bipartisan support from the major political parties.
Minister for State Development , Transport and Innovation Bill Marmion said yesterday that the Government “supports the proposal’’ for an alternative airport in Cunderdin.
“Over the last eight years, Perth has grown into a mature city, so it’s absurd that a widebody plane still needs to be diverted all the way to Adelaide when there is serious inclement weather,” he said. “A local alternative landing site will bring benefits to travellers, aviation companies and importantly the Cunderdin community.”
The Weekend West revealed on Saturday that WA-based company Ascent Aviation was well advanced with its plans to redevelop Cunderdin airport, which include a 2600m runway to enable airlines to cut fuel costs and offer significant operational safety benefits.
Most international flights need to carry fuel to divert to Adelaide or Exmouth, but those airports are up to three hours from Perth. Cunderdin is a little more than 15 minutes away from the city and is not affected by weather at Perth Airport. These advantages will also attract new airlines to serve Perth.
Labor leader Mark McGowan said the concept was a positive step. “A back-up airport or second international airport would be a major boost for tourism and if elected, it is something my government would work on,” he said.
Nationals leader Brendon Grylls said it was exciting to think what such a proposal could mean for the Wheatbelt.
“Diversifying the economies of our regions ensures our country towns can continue to grow and prosper making them more attractive locations for people to live and work,” he said.
Mr Grylls added that “as a condition of government, I expect development of any new facility will mean short-term jobs for local contractors and businesses” .
Mr Marmion said that “to realise the economic opportunities of the proposal, the Department of State Development has been appointed lead agency to work with the proponent to facilitate approvals and improve interaction with government” .
The Cunderdin redevelopment as an alternative to Perth Airport has widespread support in the aviation community, which believes its proximity to Perth and different weather conditions offer benefits for airlines.
Wheatbelt Development Commission chief executive Wendy Newman said the project would benefit the aviation industry in the area. “Cunderdin as a diversion airport is a win-win for airlines and ticks all the boxes as airlines can load more passengers or freight in place of the fuel saved,” she said.
By Geoffrey Thomas
The proposed $200 million upgrade of Cunderdin airport to handle emergency diversions from Perth has received unusual bipartisan support from the major political parties.
Minister for State Development , Transport and Innovation Bill Marmion said yesterday that the Government “supports the proposal’’ for an alternative airport in Cunderdin.
“Over the last eight years, Perth has grown into a mature city, so it’s absurd that a widebody plane still needs to be diverted all the way to Adelaide when there is serious inclement weather,” he said. “A local alternative landing site will bring benefits to travellers, aviation companies and importantly the Cunderdin community.”
The Weekend West revealed on Saturday that WA-based company Ascent Aviation was well advanced with its plans to redevelop Cunderdin airport, which include a 2600m runway to enable airlines to cut fuel costs and offer significant operational safety benefits.
Most international flights need to carry fuel to divert to Adelaide or Exmouth, but those airports are up to three hours from Perth. Cunderdin is a little more than 15 minutes away from the city and is not affected by weather at Perth Airport. These advantages will also attract new airlines to serve Perth.
Labor leader Mark McGowan said the concept was a positive step. “A back-up airport or second international airport would be a major boost for tourism and if elected, it is something my government would work on,” he said.
Nationals leader Brendon Grylls said it was exciting to think what such a proposal could mean for the Wheatbelt.
“Diversifying the economies of our regions ensures our country towns can continue to grow and prosper making them more attractive locations for people to live and work,” he said.
Mr Grylls added that “as a condition of government, I expect development of any new facility will mean short-term jobs for local contractors and businesses” .
Mr Marmion said that “to realise the economic opportunities of the proposal, the Department of State Development has been appointed lead agency to work with the proponent to facilitate approvals and improve interaction with government” .
The Cunderdin redevelopment as an alternative to Perth Airport has widespread support in the aviation community, which believes its proximity to Perth and different weather conditions offer benefits for airlines.
Wheatbelt Development Commission chief executive Wendy Newman said the project would benefit the aviation industry in the area. “Cunderdin as a diversion airport is a win-win for airlines and ticks all the boxes as airlines can load more passengers or freight in place of the fuel saved,” she said.
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How about the airforce move to Learmonth, massive under utilised infrastructure sitting up there just because the airforce people want to live in Perth. It would be great for Exmouth and then free up Pearce to be used as a 2nd airport for Perth.
Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.
Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.
Dedicated to GT.
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
key words from the virgin story:
The pilots of a Virgin passenger airliner dangerously low on fuel considered landing at Rottnest Island or Jandakot after freak high winds forced them to abort a landing at Perth Airport.
how can anyone take this guy seriously, especially after what he said about the Mallard tragedy?
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
key words from the virgin story:
The pilots of a Virgin passenger airliner dangerously low on fuel considered landing at Rottnest Island or Jandakot after freak high winds forced them to abort a landing at Perth Airport.
how can anyone take this guy seriously, especially after what he said about the Mallard tragedy?
It all seems a bit 'Pie in the sky' at the moment, and we're probably 30 years too early for any kind of Second International Airport talk for Perth.
However, if a General Aviation 'Airpark' type facility can be built, with infrastructure that helps to support and grow the long suffering General Aviation industry (from flight training to maintenance, etc), then who are we to complain?
The residents of Cunderdin and surrounds should benefit economically, and the icing on the cake would hopefully see a Widebody-capable Runway and Parking Area (and some navaids perhaps). Add that to the (near-ish) future potential for at least some freighter services, and you may see a very similar story to the relative success story of Wellcamp in QLD.
If Taxpayer funds are to be used, then personally I'd like to see Busselton, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie Airports enhanced to take multiple large jets and a greater share of General Aviation and associated support infrastructure first. If this Idea gets up though, and it helps grow the industry in any way shape or form, bring it on.
However, if a General Aviation 'Airpark' type facility can be built, with infrastructure that helps to support and grow the long suffering General Aviation industry (from flight training to maintenance, etc), then who are we to complain?
The residents of Cunderdin and surrounds should benefit economically, and the icing on the cake would hopefully see a Widebody-capable Runway and Parking Area (and some navaids perhaps). Add that to the (near-ish) future potential for at least some freighter services, and you may see a very similar story to the relative success story of Wellcamp in QLD.
If Taxpayer funds are to be used, then personally I'd like to see Busselton, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie Airports enhanced to take multiple large jets and a greater share of General Aviation and associated support infrastructure first. If this Idea gets up though, and it helps grow the industry in any way shape or form, bring it on.
Originally Posted by Team America
How about the airforce move to Learmonth, massive under utilised infrastructure sitting up there just because the airforce people want to live in Perth.
How about the airforce move to Learmonth, massive under utilised infrastructure sitting up there just because the airforce people want to live in Perth.
Originally Posted by Team America
Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.
Yes, Cat 3C is going to have to go in to YPPH or YPEA as fog is likely at both at the same time.
Thread Starter
Gerro, Kal, Cunnas Dogfight!
Originally Posted by The West, 25Feb
Battle on over airport alternative
by Geoff Thomas and Josh Chiat
A battle is looming between Kalgoorlie , Geraldton and Cunderdin over the rights to be the preferred alternative airport for Perth.
Last month Ascent Aviation said it was well advanced with plans to redevelop Cunderdin as an alternative to Perth and had signed up a major international airline.
All major political parties back the plan, with aviation experts saying Cunderdin ticked all the boxes because of its proximity to Perth, while being far enough away not to be affected by inclement weather at the same time as Perth.
Nationals candidate for Kalgoorlie Tony Crook said Kalgoorlie would have been a better option.
“You never know when these airports are going to be needed,” he said.
“That’s why a place like Kalgoorlie would be a better alternative because it has existing services in place. You’ve got security in place, you’ve got a significant terminal and you’ve got accommodation in town.
“Sure, the airstrip would need upgrading, the tarmac loading would probably need to be increased and the length would need to be increased but I would have thought that would be the cheaper option than the 200-odd million dollars for Cunderdin.”
However, the initial Cunderdin alternative plan will cost only between $40 and $60 million with the higher figure related to developing the airfield as a freight terminal.
In 2014 airlines carried out a study of Kalgoorlie as an alternative but found there were major issues such as the runway being too short because houses and the Super Pit were nearby.
But an airline executive, who is close to committing to Cunderdin, told The Weekend West that there were no rights to be the alternative to Perth.
“It’s all about making the business case. Up till now Kalgoorlie, not Geraldton, has put a viable proposal and we have been diverting to Adelaide for years,” he said.
“For us, Cunderdin makes far more sense because it’s so close to Perth and gives us the opportunity of returning to Perth before our crew are over their duty time hours and that is critical.”
Mr Crook argued using Kalgoorlie would save fuel, as flights from the Eastern States usually flew “within striking distance” of Kalgoorlie-Boulder . “If they had to deviate to an alternative airport like Kalgoorlie, they’d be doing it on the way,” he said.
by Geoff Thomas and Josh Chiat
A battle is looming between Kalgoorlie , Geraldton and Cunderdin over the rights to be the preferred alternative airport for Perth.
Last month Ascent Aviation said it was well advanced with plans to redevelop Cunderdin as an alternative to Perth and had signed up a major international airline.
All major political parties back the plan, with aviation experts saying Cunderdin ticked all the boxes because of its proximity to Perth, while being far enough away not to be affected by inclement weather at the same time as Perth.
Nationals candidate for Kalgoorlie Tony Crook said Kalgoorlie would have been a better option.
“You never know when these airports are going to be needed,” he said.
“That’s why a place like Kalgoorlie would be a better alternative because it has existing services in place. You’ve got security in place, you’ve got a significant terminal and you’ve got accommodation in town.
“Sure, the airstrip would need upgrading, the tarmac loading would probably need to be increased and the length would need to be increased but I would have thought that would be the cheaper option than the 200-odd million dollars for Cunderdin.”
However, the initial Cunderdin alternative plan will cost only between $40 and $60 million with the higher figure related to developing the airfield as a freight terminal.
In 2014 airlines carried out a study of Kalgoorlie as an alternative but found there were major issues such as the runway being too short because houses and the Super Pit were nearby.
But an airline executive, who is close to committing to Cunderdin, told The Weekend West that there were no rights to be the alternative to Perth.
“It’s all about making the business case. Up till now Kalgoorlie, not Geraldton, has put a viable proposal and we have been diverting to Adelaide for years,” he said.
“For us, Cunderdin makes far more sense because it’s so close to Perth and gives us the opportunity of returning to Perth before our crew are over their duty time hours and that is critical.”
Mr Crook argued using Kalgoorlie would save fuel, as flights from the Eastern States usually flew “within striking distance” of Kalgoorlie-Boulder . “If they had to deviate to an alternative airport like Kalgoorlie, they’d be doing it on the way,” he said.
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Most informative post Bloggs
Given the
YPPH YCUn67 nm
YPPH YBLN 109 nm
YPPH YGEL 199 nm
YPPH YPKG291 nm
Great Circle Mapper
Given the
YPPH YCUn67 nm
YPPH YBLN 109 nm
YPPH YGEL 199 nm
YPPH YPKG291 nm
Great Circle Mapper
