QF 7879 routes
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There is a hell of a difference between arriving well rested before a 12 hour multi-sector domestic duty and a 14-18 hour LH single sector duty.
You must be well rested before the domestic duty or your performance will suffer.
On the other hand, a lot of pilots sign on to LH duties deliberately under-rested. It's the only way they will manage to get some sleep in the bunk.
Does FRMS consider this little practicality?
You must be well rested before the domestic duty or your performance will suffer.
On the other hand, a lot of pilots sign on to LH duties deliberately under-rested. It's the only way they will manage to get some sleep in the bunk.
Does FRMS consider this little practicality?
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Who says there's a Perth base?
This discussion is all moot unless there's a base in Perth.
So far, I haven't read anything about a Perth base except conjecture here.
The only confirmed base at this point is Melbourne. Flights from Perth to London could certainly be crewed from Melbourne. With such a small initial fleet it doesn't make sense to start up a second base in the short term. In fact the costs of having a base in Perth would significantly outweigh the savings in accommodation in Perth.
Until the fleet numbers increase and the flying starts showing some statistics I find a Perth base to be unlikely.
So far, I haven't read anything about a Perth base except conjecture here.
The only confirmed base at this point is Melbourne. Flights from Perth to London could certainly be crewed from Melbourne. With such a small initial fleet it doesn't make sense to start up a second base in the short term. In fact the costs of having a base in Perth would significantly outweigh the savings in accommodation in Perth.
Until the fleet numbers increase and the flying starts showing some statistics I find a Perth base to be unlikely.
On the other hand, a lot of pilots sign on to LH duties deliberately under-rested. It's the only way they will manage to get some sleep in the bunk.
And if all the crew members subscribe to this analogy...?
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Fathom, I think you're missing my point.
I didn't say crew are signing on fatigued. I said "under-rested". By which I mean they ensure they have not had had 8 hours continuous sleep prior to sign on. Purposefully.
Under a normal circadian rhythm, one sleeps 8 hours per day, and wakes for the remaining 16 hours.
If you sleep for 8 hours, and then try to take a two hour nap 4-8 hours later, you are unlikely to gain any sleep.
If one was to sleep 8 hours prior to signon for an 18 hour flight, the circadian rhythm will dictate that it's bed-time in the last few hours of the flight. That's the last thing you want if you have been unable to sleep inflight. Add jet-lag to the equation and it gets worse.
Hence, turn up either after a short sleep (2-4 hours), or after a considerable wake period, and you stand a chance of actually sleeping in the bunk and being alert for the duration of the flight, and, most importantly, the arrival.
This is not news. ULH pilots have been doing this for years. You are obviously not one.
My question in the context of the thread was whether FRMS takes into account that the majority of ULH pilots have learned by experience that this is the best way to operate. I doubt it.
And so, I put to the community that commuting to an ULH flight may not necessarily be the threat that it is being made out to be. A couple of hours of shuteye on an A330 might actually be ideal from an FRMS perspective for the forthcoming 18-20 hour duty.
I didn't say crew are signing on fatigued. I said "under-rested". By which I mean they ensure they have not had had 8 hours continuous sleep prior to sign on. Purposefully.
Under a normal circadian rhythm, one sleeps 8 hours per day, and wakes for the remaining 16 hours.
If you sleep for 8 hours, and then try to take a two hour nap 4-8 hours later, you are unlikely to gain any sleep.
If one was to sleep 8 hours prior to signon for an 18 hour flight, the circadian rhythm will dictate that it's bed-time in the last few hours of the flight. That's the last thing you want if you have been unable to sleep inflight. Add jet-lag to the equation and it gets worse.
Hence, turn up either after a short sleep (2-4 hours), or after a considerable wake period, and you stand a chance of actually sleeping in the bunk and being alert for the duration of the flight, and, most importantly, the arrival.
This is not news. ULH pilots have been doing this for years. You are obviously not one.
My question in the context of the thread was whether FRMS takes into account that the majority of ULH pilots have learned by experience that this is the best way to operate. I doubt it.
And so, I put to the community that commuting to an ULH flight may not necessarily be the threat that it is being made out to be. A couple of hours of shuteye on an A330 might actually be ideal from an FRMS perspective for the forthcoming 18-20 hour duty.
Last edited by Derfred; 10th Jan 2017 at 14:22.
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A couple of hours sleep in an A330 prior to the flight would be great, and this would be achievable in business class, however, given our fantastic staff travel system, your most likely to be in cattle class and unable to sleep.
Regarding turning up for a long haul flight not rested, I found the best way to do the late evening Asia to Euroupe departures was to not sleep prior to flight. So you have been awake about 15 hours prior to the flight. The other crew would have generally slept prior to flight. I felt quite alert for take-off and climb, but then had no problems sleeping for about 6 hours, i'd return to the flight deck over Afghanistan, where the other pilot would then have no problems sleeping for the next 6 hours and returing totally refreshed for landing.
Regarding turning up for a long haul flight not rested, I found the best way to do the late evening Asia to Euroupe departures was to not sleep prior to flight. So you have been awake about 15 hours prior to the flight. The other crew would have generally slept prior to flight. I felt quite alert for take-off and climb, but then had no problems sleeping for about 6 hours, i'd return to the flight deck over Afghanistan, where the other pilot would then have no problems sleeping for the next 6 hours and returing totally refreshed for landing.
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Ah, that's the fun of long haul flying ! In this case I am talking about the 2nd leg of AUS-EUR trip, so you have already had the AUS-ASIA flight together, and can liaise re the next nights flying.
But really, whats worse, all crew turning up fully rested for the evening 13 hour flight. First crew member goes off for rest and can't sleep, he comes back tired, next guy goes off, probably gets a small amount of sleep but ends up that the first guy calls him back because he is now too tired. The end result is descent into destination with all crew fatigued.
Many times, when the other crew member went off for the first break, the said they they probably couldn't sleep for the first half, I'd say "come back whenever you want", generally I would end up calling them back at half way. This worked out to be about 5-6 hours rest in pretty close to your normal sleep times in AUS, they would be fully rested for the rest of the flight.
Basically its long haul flying, out of your time zone, etc etc, we are all fatigued by this sort of flying. Mandating set rest times doesn't work, its up to each person to do what's best for himself and to work with the other crew members to ensure a safe flight.
But really, whats worse, all crew turning up fully rested for the evening 13 hour flight. First crew member goes off for rest and can't sleep, he comes back tired, next guy goes off, probably gets a small amount of sleep but ends up that the first guy calls him back because he is now too tired. The end result is descent into destination with all crew fatigued.
Many times, when the other crew member went off for the first break, the said they they probably couldn't sleep for the first half, I'd say "come back whenever you want", generally I would end up calling them back at half way. This worked out to be about 5-6 hours rest in pretty close to your normal sleep times in AUS, they would be fully rested for the rest of the flight.
Basically its long haul flying, out of your time zone, etc etc, we are all fatigued by this sort of flying. Mandating set rest times doesn't work, its up to each person to do what's best for himself and to work with the other crew members to ensure a safe flight.
Last edited by MrWooby; 11th Jan 2017 at 04:31.
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I believe EK run a system of operating crew and relief crew. If you're rostered as relief crew you're expected to turn up to work ready to sleep. You then hit the bunk at top of climb.
Great idea, but only if you have Captains and F/Os. Of course with QF using S/Os this would be problematic.
Great idea, but only if you have Captains and F/Os. Of course with QF using S/Os this would be problematic.
In this case I am talking about the 2nd leg of AUS-EUR trip
I believe EK run a system of operating crew and relief crew. If you're rostered as relief crew you're expected to turn up to work ready to sleep. You then hit the bunk at top of climb.
This discussion is all moot unless there's a base in Perth.
But here's the thing, on other (current) types, the practice of paxing from east coast to PH and then operating (sometimes boc) to wherever continues unabated.
Not so sure that's the case... I heard that the aircraft will likely operate LAX-MEL-PER-LHR then LHR-PER-MEL-LAX. (or is it MEL-SFO the new route, can't remember). This will allow MEL pax to join and transit PER before their one-stop to LHR as an alternative to DXB on QF9. It also offers the opportunity for LAX-PER with one stop on the same aircraft. The flights are supposedly departing PER at 1930L so it will be a late afternoon departure from MEL presumably (before QF9).
Isn't that why they provide Limos??? FRMS and Duty Time Limitations are based on Sign On/Sign Off time.
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Aerial how far is the home transport boundary again?
Not all pilots reside within, hence the quoted travel times mentioned verses paxing times of a similar duration.
Was just trying to compare apples with apples.
Not all pilots reside within, hence the quoted travel times mentioned verses paxing times of a similar duration.
Was just trying to compare apples with apples.
[QUOTE]A couple of hours sleep in an A330 prior to the flight would be great, and this would be achievable in business class, however, given our fantastic staff travel system, your most likely to be in cattle class and unable to sleep.[/QUOTE
Tell us, Mr Wooby, that you are joking. Do you really think that the Staff Travel scheme should be enhanced for the benefit of commuting crew? And do you think that crew who chose to live at other than their place of work (base) should travel in J class at the expense of full fare paying passengers?
Get real and STFU.
Tell us, Mr Wooby, that you are joking. Do you really think that the Staff Travel scheme should be enhanced for the benefit of commuting crew? And do you think that crew who chose to live at other than their place of work (base) should travel in J class at the expense of full fare paying passengers?
Get real and STFU.
As I understand it, a new category of 41Y onload was introduced a while back for senior management.
This applied for all their trips.
So that meant that the only time a non senior management staff member travelling, had a higher onload, was on a LSL trip with a Category of 40.
The 41Y onload I believe was withdrawn, along with several other changes, with the introduction of the new I Fly staff travel system?
This applied for all their trips.
So that meant that the only time a non senior management staff member travelling, had a higher onload, was on a LSL trip with a Category of 40.
The 41Y onload I believe was withdrawn, along with several other changes, with the introduction of the new I Fly staff travel system?
It's about the upgrade priority F11. So a kid in a graduate position in their first year of service beats a 40 year Captain to the last business seat. Check any international service and there is an unusually high number of staff (plus their family, friends, girlfriends, boyfriend) flying around with an F11 upgrade
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Amazing how you can make a simple statement and then have a totally different interpretation placed upon it. Ken, I was simple saying that commuting would be very hard if stuck in economy class for 4-5 hours, prior to your long haul flight.
I also think that a few commuters are risking it a bit by not leaving many options for travel if you don't get on your flight, or your flight goes u/s. When I commuted on the east coast I would allow at least 3 flight options to get me to sydney, but was still paranoid about missing my flight. This is much harder to do on Perth flights as less options and you would end up having to arrive many hours ahead of your departure.
I think commuting to Perth would be ok but probably a requirement to have a nights sleep in the departure time zone prior to departure would be advisable.
But as for displacing paying passengers, you have to wonder how many have actually paid the full fare business class instead of upgrading using points or cash. There has to be a very fine line between people who would have paid full fare but now don't and use the upgrade facility, hence less revenue, versus the money made by upgrading. A false economy if you ask me.
I also think that a few commuters are risking it a bit by not leaving many options for travel if you don't get on your flight, or your flight goes u/s. When I commuted on the east coast I would allow at least 3 flight options to get me to sydney, but was still paranoid about missing my flight. This is much harder to do on Perth flights as less options and you would end up having to arrive many hours ahead of your departure.
I think commuting to Perth would be ok but probably a requirement to have a nights sleep in the departure time zone prior to departure would be advisable.
But as for displacing paying passengers, you have to wonder how many have actually paid the full fare business class instead of upgrading using points or cash. There has to be a very fine line between people who would have paid full fare but now don't and use the upgrade facility, hence less revenue, versus the money made by upgrading. A false economy if you ask me.