457 visa FOs started at QantasLink
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And you back up your "457 Visa" headline with....????
Not to mention the fact that many, many, many Aussies have a job flying in just about every country in the world on some kind of Work Visa or Permit.
Not to mention the fact that many, many, many Aussies have a job flying in just about every country in the world on some kind of Work Visa or Permit.
Well usually when a country let's in expat pilots there is a shortage of locally qualified people. There is certainly no shortage in Oz of CPL holders with varying levels of experience.
Regardless of the various cries of there are Aussies in all sorts of countries across the world, the 457 visa program is supposedly intended to only allow experienced workers in a selected range of fields entry into Australia only if a test has been applied that demonstrated that there were no suitable applicants from within Australia.
Skywest did it with the ATR introduction for a bunch of experienced ATR crew and the hook there was there were very few experienced pilots with ATR time and it was a new type and therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.
I don't think that reasoning could be applied to the QantasLink case and given that they have a well established check and training system experienced in training all manner of pilots, including cadets with sod all total time on the Dash, then I can't see the justification for allowing the 457 visas.
With regards Aussies in different countries, most of the countries are ones where the pilots are needed not wanted and they would give the expat pilots the push with the blink of an eye of they could.
Many are in Europe and a much smaller number in the US as a result of family ties that give them passports/right of residency in the respective countries and they have to do all the licensing like normal residents. No free passes in the easa system even for experienced pilots, so for those that went to those countries they worked for it, so good on them.
The US is easier from a licensing perspective but more difficult from an immigration perspective. Even more difficult from a seniority perspective. From what I read on another thread, if you don't have an aviation related bachelors degree you need 12 years of relevant industry experience to qualify for an E3 view, which I gather from my non existent research
is the US equivalent to our 457. Because of the way the industry works there you are not going to get much credit for your experience in terms of the positions available to you, so you start at the bottom of the list like everyone else and get **** money and **** rosters working for the regional feeders into the mainline carriers and work your way up from there. In fairness it is probably much the same as here in many ways except the salaries paid here are much more substantial than those paid to 'junior' pilots in the US.
I would love to go and be a wide body airbus captain in Europe and take the family and see out my career there but it just ain't going to happen. I don't have the family heritage that gets me an EU passport, I couldn't be arsed doing all the subjects again, and starting as a FO again, so it just ain't going to happen for me, but there are those that are happy to take the bucks in China and not sure why the sandpit is attractive other than shiny wide body aeroplanes but people go there too, but make no mistake if the Chinese or the Emiratis could get rid of expats and crew all their aeroplanes with locals without huge dramas the expats (of all nationalities) would be gone in a heartbeat.
Skywest did it with the ATR introduction for a bunch of experienced ATR crew and the hook there was there were very few experienced pilots with ATR time and it was a new type and therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.
I don't think that reasoning could be applied to the QantasLink case and given that they have a well established check and training system experienced in training all manner of pilots, including cadets with sod all total time on the Dash, then I can't see the justification for allowing the 457 visas.
With regards Aussies in different countries, most of the countries are ones where the pilots are needed not wanted and they would give the expat pilots the push with the blink of an eye of they could.
Many are in Europe and a much smaller number in the US as a result of family ties that give them passports/right of residency in the respective countries and they have to do all the licensing like normal residents. No free passes in the easa system even for experienced pilots, so for those that went to those countries they worked for it, so good on them.
The US is easier from a licensing perspective but more difficult from an immigration perspective. Even more difficult from a seniority perspective. From what I read on another thread, if you don't have an aviation related bachelors degree you need 12 years of relevant industry experience to qualify for an E3 view, which I gather from my non existent research
is the US equivalent to our 457. Because of the way the industry works there you are not going to get much credit for your experience in terms of the positions available to you, so you start at the bottom of the list like everyone else and get **** money and **** rosters working for the regional feeders into the mainline carriers and work your way up from there. In fairness it is probably much the same as here in many ways except the salaries paid here are much more substantial than those paid to 'junior' pilots in the US.I would love to go and be a wide body airbus captain in Europe and take the family and see out my career there but it just ain't going to happen. I don't have the family heritage that gets me an EU passport, I couldn't be arsed doing all the subjects again, and starting as a FO again, so it just ain't going to happen for me, but there are those that are happy to take the bucks in China and not sure why the sandpit is attractive other than shiny wide body aeroplanes but people go there too, but make no mistake if the Chinese or the Emiratis could get rid of expats and crew all their aeroplanes with locals without huge dramas the expats (of all nationalities) would be gone in a heartbeat.
There is no way that any Australian operator would see the 457 Visa as a way to get experienced and qualified crew at lower wages than paying qualified Australians appropriately.
And similarly, no experienced pilot in their right mind would come to Australia willing to accept work on 457 Visa at wages lower than a qualified Australian would/could accept. Oh, hang on, did you say that after 5 years on a 457 at crap wages I get Australian citizenship? Gee, let me think....
These things just wouldnt happen in Australia.....
And similarly, no experienced pilot in their right mind would come to Australia willing to accept work on 457 Visa at wages lower than a qualified Australian would/could accept. Oh, hang on, did you say that after 5 years on a 457 at crap wages I get Australian citizenship? Gee, let me think....
These things just wouldnt happen in Australia.....
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Any one on a 457 visa must be paid the same as an Australian, if not report the company. So they will be on the same Qlink award.
South Africa has some smart folk, I assume only both pilots are male. I don't know if they are married to a professional with an occupation on the skills shortage list that qualify for a 457 visa, certainly possible from my understanding of SA.
If the partner of the pilot is issued a 457 visa, the pilot is also issued a 457 visa with full work rights (any kids too). More than half 457 visa holders in Australia are partners and siblings not skilled workers.
So things may not be as they seem, what do your partners do for work, is it a Skilled Shortage area?
South Africa has some smart folk, I assume only both pilots are male. I don't know if they are married to a professional with an occupation on the skills shortage list that qualify for a 457 visa, certainly possible from my understanding of SA.
If the partner of the pilot is issued a 457 visa, the pilot is also issued a 457 visa with full work rights (any kids too). More than half 457 visa holders in Australia are partners and siblings not skilled workers.
So things may not be as they seem, what do your partners do for work, is it a Skilled Shortage area?
Many countries won't allow foreign first officers or have strict limits on them as F/O positions can be filled by locals eg Malaysia. India doesn't allow upgrades to Captain.
Experienced Commanders are a different matter as often there are very few locals in developing countries with the necessary hours, and big orders for aircraft which need start flying as soon as they arrive in country eg Indonesia.
Was this job advertised and no suitably qualified locals found ? With a minimum of CPL I/R M/E required for the right seat I doubt it it.
Experienced Commanders are a different matter as often there are very few locals in developing countries with the necessary hours, and big orders for aircraft which need start flying as soon as they arrive in country eg Indonesia.
Was this job advertised and no suitably qualified locals found ? With a minimum of CPL I/R M/E required for the right seat I doubt it it.
therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.
I guess the big issue is that if you or I go to the EU with 10,000 hours on a 737 we will have to start the licence from scratch with zero prior experience recognised. I think EU to AU is a case of a Air Law, medical and a sim ride for the conversion.
My number one gripe with the industry is the lack of portability of the licence and medicals. It's pretty pathetic.
Last edited by Berealgetreal; 18th Sep 2016 at 01:42.
Off topic for Snakecharma. You could always work with Korean that base you where you want in Europe a fly you business to and from work (Seoul). It's a contract that's come a long way.
Metro man may know more than me however.
Metro man may know more than me however.
Thanks Bereal...
I have a few mates in Korean.
I have a left hand seat in a wide body in an Aussie airline so until our exalted leadership send us broke I will stick around but it was an ambition to fly out of Europe.
I am too old and too set up with kids and schools etc and frankly too lazy to do all the work required
Re the ATR experienced people in Virgin - if I understood what you wrote you had some mates already in virgin who wanted to be involved but didn't get an opportunity. Skywest was the company that set up the operation with the 457's and they were not owned by Virgin at that stage, so the whole leave without pay, training up replacements in virgin stuff would have been far too hard given the other stuff going on at the time
I have a few mates in Korean.
I have a left hand seat in a wide body in an Aussie airline so until our exalted leadership send us broke I will stick around but it was an ambition to fly out of Europe.
I am too old and too set up with kids and schools etc and frankly too lazy to do all the work required
Re the ATR experienced people in Virgin - if I understood what you wrote you had some mates already in virgin who wanted to be involved but didn't get an opportunity. Skywest was the company that set up the operation with the 457's and they were not owned by Virgin at that stage, so the whole leave without pay, training up replacements in virgin stuff would have been far too hard given the other stuff going on at the time
EASA:
Likewise, books out for 15 Easa ATPL's only if I have to. Ridiculous scenario. Been like that for decades, it's getting worse. They don't even recognise left seat jet time anymore.
ATR:
At the time there was a request for expressions of interest for the ATR. 50 applied, some with ATR experience some not. 457 visas were the end result.
Likewise, books out for 15 Easa ATPL's only if I have to. Ridiculous scenario. Been like that for decades, it's getting worse. They don't even recognise left seat jet time anymore.
ATR:
At the time there was a request for expressions of interest for the ATR. 50 applied, some with ATR experience some not. 457 visas were the end result.
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I stand corrected by Fact Checker on more unskilled 457 visa holders than skilled visa holders.
But the point is if these 2 pilots got 457 visa because their spouse's qualifications and experience, these two pilots have the exact same right to any job any other Australian has. Be sure they will have spread the word back in SA.
What are the work entitlementsfor immediate (accompanying) family members?
Whilst subclass 457 primary visa holders areapproved to meet specific skill needs, their spouses and other working age dependentsmay work across industries in skilled or unskilled occupations during theirstay in Australia.
At the endof the most recent quarter, March 2016, there were 97,766 primary 457 visaholders and 79,624 secondary visa holders — a total of 177,390.
But the point is if these 2 pilots got 457 visa because their spouse's qualifications and experience, these two pilots have the exact same right to any job any other Australian has. Be sure they will have spread the word back in SA.
What are the work entitlementsfor immediate (accompanying) family members?
Whilst subclass 457 primary visa holders areapproved to meet specific skill needs, their spouses and other working age dependentsmay work across industries in skilled or unskilled occupations during theirstay in Australia.
At the endof the most recent quarter, March 2016, there were 97,766 primary 457 visaholders and 79,624 secondary visa holders — a total of 177,390.
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As for the South Africans coming to Aus to fly a turbo-prop, it's an 'interesting' choice as there are many other options out there these days to move into a jet from a turbo-prop such as CX, EK and the US regionals if they can get the work visa.
Perhaps QLink's thinking is that if these guys forego these other opportunities to come to Australia to work for Qlink, then they most probably will be long term stayers at the Link and will get years out of their service than someone from Aus GA who will use Qlink as a stepping stone to CX or EK.
Perhaps QLink's thinking is that if these guys forego these other opportunities to come to Australia to work for Qlink, then they most probably will be long term stayers at the Link and will get years out of their service than someone from Aus GA who will use Qlink as a stepping stone to CX or EK.
Last edited by VH DSJ; 18th Sep 2016 at 08:39.
The same rule should apply worldwide.
"If" the Airline cannot find suitable applicants to fill the seats then they can offer it to foreigners.
That's why Aussies are working overseas, because CX EK etc cannot find enough locals either suitable or indeed willing to fly, end of story full stop.
Now, are you really telling me there are no suitable applicants to sit in the right seat of a Dash 8 in Australia?
Rubbish.
"If" the Airline cannot find suitable applicants to fill the seats then they can offer it to foreigners.
That's why Aussies are working overseas, because CX EK etc cannot find enough locals either suitable or indeed willing to fly, end of story full stop.
Now, are you really telling me there are no suitable applicants to sit in the right seat of a Dash 8 in Australia?
Rubbish.
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ACMS,sSo if your wife is a heart surgeon and yourself experienced pilot and your wifegets a great opportunity to work in Australia on a 457 and you both decide tocome to Australia.
Although you have full work rights, you cannot work because you are a foreignerand Australia has pilots thus and get priority?
Basically shutting down any "married skilled workers" ever coming to Australia bringing the skills we need -yep that's smart.
Although you have full work rights, you cannot work because you are a foreignerand Australia has pilots thus and get priority?
Basically shutting down any "married skilled workers" ever coming to Australia bringing the skills we need -yep that's smart.
Don't need much of a stepping stone to get into the likes of EK now.
I know of two who went from a Metro and Saab to 777 FO.
I know of two who went from a Metro and Saab to 777 FO.