CNS RWY15 EOSID
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CNS RWY15 EOSID
Can any Airbus driver who operates into CNS answer a quick question?
My companies EOSID for RWY15 is wrong. The SOP is to climb to MFRA 1,500'AAL and accelerate to Green Dot (cleaning up). At CNS the EFB tells us that there is a max speed to fly the escape manoeuver, and it is usually below Green Dot speed. This means if you follow the SOP you'll break the max speed for the escape manoeuver.
Before you ask - yes, I have pointed it out to management and they've done nothing. No reply.
So can any of you Airbus guys tell me what your own outfit does at CNS for EOSID?
Many thanks.
My companies EOSID for RWY15 is wrong. The SOP is to climb to MFRA 1,500'AAL and accelerate to Green Dot (cleaning up). At CNS the EFB tells us that there is a max speed to fly the escape manoeuver, and it is usually below Green Dot speed. This means if you follow the SOP you'll break the max speed for the escape manoeuver.
Before you ask - yes, I have pointed it out to management and they've done nothing. No reply.
So can any of you Airbus guys tell me what your own outfit does at CNS for EOSID?
Many thanks.
MFRA?
Without seeing both EO procedures it's hard to give a straight answer. Such as where are the turns, what's the acceleration altitude on the EFB?
Good chance you could be interpreting it wrong.
morno
Without seeing both EO procedures it's hard to give a straight answer. Such as where are the turns, what's the acceleration altitude on the EFB?
Good chance you could be interpreting it wrong.
morno
Algol,
You are, I suspect, flying it incorrectly.
The speed restriction is to reduce the radius of turn so you don't hit the hills.
So cleaning up and flying it at green dot increases the turn radii, puts the hills to the south of 15 into the splay and invalidates the weight produced by the performance software.
You won't see it until you have an engine failure, when you are at the performance limited weight and the aeroplane performs like it will perform on one engine.
My advice is to stay within the EOSID speed limitations, even if it means staying at flap 1 and then accelerate once established wings level on the outbound track.
If you look at the EOSID does it have a minimum acceleration altitude?
It won't be an Airbus specific thing either.
You are, I suspect, flying it incorrectly.
The speed restriction is to reduce the radius of turn so you don't hit the hills.
So cleaning up and flying it at green dot increases the turn radii, puts the hills to the south of 15 into the splay and invalidates the weight produced by the performance software.
You won't see it until you have an engine failure, when you are at the performance limited weight and the aeroplane performs like it will perform on one engine.
My advice is to stay within the EOSID speed limitations, even if it means staying at flap 1 and then accelerate once established wings level on the outbound track.
If you look at the EOSID does it have a minimum acceleration altitude?
It won't be an Airbus specific thing either.
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MFRA is Minimum Flap Retraction Altitude! Acceleration Alt if you prefer. Basic knowledge surely?
How do you mean 'flying it incorrectly'? I've never 'flown it' - I've never had an engine failure. I'm querying other operators POLICIES.
Yes Yes! I would prefer to stay within the speed limitations, I don't need you to tell me WHY.
I'm asking for a genuine AB pilot to answer this, with the ACTUAL procedure his company uses, thanks. Anybody?
How do you mean 'flying it incorrectly'? I've never 'flown it' - I've never had an engine failure. I'm querying other operators POLICIES.
Yes Yes! I would prefer to stay within the speed limitations, I don't need you to tell me WHY.
I'm asking for a genuine AB pilot to answer this, with the ACTUAL procedure his company uses, thanks. Anybody?
Well smarty pants, you are talking to a "genuine" airbus (and ex Boeing and ex a couple of other jet manufacturer types) pilot and I am telling you that you don't accelerate to green dot! You are also talking a person with significant ops (performance) engineering background and experience. The tracking of the actual procedure is irrelevant and I didn't think added to the conversation BUT it turns you away from the terrain at a reduced speed and this requires you to NOT clean up all the way.
As for "flying it incorrectly" perhaps I incorrectly assumed you had flown it in the sim and this was the genesis of your question, however the bold assumption on your part that and I quote "the EOSID for RWY15 is wrong" is the most worrying part. Combine that with your statement that you would "prefer" to stay within the speed limit indicates, fairly clearly, that you don't understand the why.
Good luck!
As for "flying it incorrectly" perhaps I incorrectly assumed you had flown it in the sim and this was the genesis of your question, however the bold assumption on your part that and I quote "the EOSID for RWY15 is wrong" is the most worrying part. Combine that with your statement that you would "prefer" to stay within the speed limit indicates, fairly clearly, that you don't understand the why.
Good luck!
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Boy, someone is a little touchy.
In a departure such as Cairns, with an engine out, you maintain takeoff flap until you reach the specified hdg or altitude, in the special procedure, whichever occures later.
In a departure such as Cairns, with an engine out, you maintain takeoff flap until you reach the specified hdg or altitude, in the special procedure, whichever occures later.
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This site is unfortunately populated with FlightSim pilots who need to be weeded out and ignored. Asking what MFRA or Accel Alt is would be a good giveaway.
Snakecharmer - you say '"I'm telling you that you don't accelerate to Green Dot". Well mate, that is EXACTLY what you do in an Airbus in our company, and in the FCOM, and the FCTM.
Now, if YOUR company does something different, that's what I'm asking. I'm not looking for flying lessons here, ok? Just SOP's, for comparison. Not your made up concepts - real airline SOPs.
Nemesis - is that your company SOP, or your own solution?
If its your Airbus Company SOP then I agree with it. unfortunately my company is not proposing this because they have a different SOP and are loath to think outside the box.
Snakecharmer - you say '"I'm telling you that you don't accelerate to Green Dot". Well mate, that is EXACTLY what you do in an Airbus in our company, and in the FCOM, and the FCTM.
Now, if YOUR company does something different, that's what I'm asking. I'm not looking for flying lessons here, ok? Just SOP's, for comparison. Not your made up concepts - real airline SOPs.
Nemesis - is that your company SOP, or your own solution?
If its your Airbus Company SOP then I agree with it. unfortunately my company is not proposing this because they have a different SOP and are loath to think outside the box.
Probably not the way to go about it, come on here and berate others who are trying to answer your question.
As stated above, you should not be accelerating until you're on the required heading anyway, regardless of your altitude.
I'm starting to think you don't understand the requirements that have to be met before you commence acceleration and clean up.
morno
As stated above, you should not be accelerating until you're on the required heading anyway, regardless of your altitude.
I'm starting to think you don't understand the requirements that have to be met before you commence acceleration and clean up.
morno
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Morno - the company EOSIDs are designed by LIDO.
Have you heard of them? They're a subsidiary of Lufthansa: https://www.lhsystems.com/solutions-...idoperformance
Now, as it happens, the company I worked for before this one applied the same SOP you seem familiar with. I preferred it too. But in the great big wide world of aviation you meet up with all sorts of operators, with all sorts of different policies, and in the one I work at right now this is their policy, and LIDO merely crunch the numbers to fit the customers SOP's it seems.
By the way - read the initial replies I got. "You're interpreting it wrong", "You're flying it incorrectly". Who needs that kind of abuse?
Have you heard of them? They're a subsidiary of Lufthansa: https://www.lhsystems.com/solutions-...idoperformance
Now, as it happens, the company I worked for before this one applied the same SOP you seem familiar with. I preferred it too. But in the great big wide world of aviation you meet up with all sorts of operators, with all sorts of different policies, and in the one I work at right now this is their policy, and LIDO merely crunch the numbers to fit the customers SOP's it seems.
By the way - read the initial replies I got. "You're interpreting it wrong", "You're flying it incorrectly". Who needs that kind of abuse?
Ok Algol,
Let's start from scratch.
Are you referring to 320, 330 or 340? Shouldn't make any difference but I only have 330 fcom, fctm.
Let me re read ours and give you specifics without mentioning company names, but I can assure you that our company has a specific acceleration altitude for each EOSID and you don't accelerate until you reach that MINIMUM altitude or roll wings level, whichever occurs later.
In relation to accelerating to green dot in your company, is there a distinction made in your manuals between the all engine case and one engine inop? If not then I am surprised.
And last point, i didn't ask about what MFRA meant and I don't think Morno did either. Neither of us asked what accel alt meant. What I did ask you is if your software nominated a minimum acceleration altitude on the performance data when it generates the info you use.
Let's start from scratch.
Are you referring to 320, 330 or 340? Shouldn't make any difference but I only have 330 fcom, fctm.
Let me re read ours and give you specifics without mentioning company names, but I can assure you that our company has a specific acceleration altitude for each EOSID and you don't accelerate until you reach that MINIMUM altitude or roll wings level, whichever occurs later.
In relation to accelerating to green dot in your company, is there a distinction made in your manuals between the all engine case and one engine inop? If not then I am surprised.
And last point, i didn't ask about what MFRA meant and I don't think Morno did either. Neither of us asked what accel alt meant. What I did ask you is if your software nominated a minimum acceleration altitude on the performance data when it generates the info you use.
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You're possibly confused.
Where did I say we accelerate before 1,500ft?
OK, once more with feeling,
You accelerate AT 1,500ft - to Green Dot (Clean up).
Thats their SOP.
The turn comes later at CNS....you go straight out for 11 miles!
There's a limit on the turn speed. Lets call it 200kts (its a fixed MAX speed).
Your Green Dot is 205kts (because of your weight on the day).
Now what?
Where did I say we accelerate before 1,500ft?
OK, once more with feeling,
You accelerate AT 1,500ft - to Green Dot (Clean up).
Thats their SOP.
The turn comes later at CNS....you go straight out for 11 miles!
There's a limit on the turn speed. Lets call it 200kts (its a fixed MAX speed).
Your Green Dot is 205kts (because of your weight on the day).
Now what?
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"You go straight out for 11 miles".
Not with an engine failure unless you are planning to do some mining !!!
SID's from RWY 15 have a 400' or DER turn to the north east. I've worked for a couple of airlines operating into CNS in both A320 and A330 and both had a specific E/O hdg to turn to and with both, you had to keep the T/o flap until reaching the heading.
Airbus just build the aircraft, they leave specific engine out procedures to your performance engineers.
Not with an engine failure unless you are planning to do some mining !!!
SID's from RWY 15 have a 400' or DER turn to the north east. I've worked for a couple of airlines operating into CNS in both A320 and A330 and both had a specific E/O hdg to turn to and with both, you had to keep the T/o flap until reaching the heading.
Airbus just build the aircraft, they leave specific engine out procedures to your performance engineers.
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Nemesis, you're the only one here seems to have a clue.
The EOSID on RWY15 (I'm talking ENGINE OUT people, PLEASE RTFQ) is to go straight out for 11DME CS (the VOR), then make the turn (right) back to CS. The idea being (I presume) to put you in the valley out there and then start your manoeuvre back to CS within it.
If you operate an Airbus into CNS and the SOP is to delay accel until the turn is complete, what does your company tell you for an EOSID GA?
If making the approach in CONF FULL, the GA will be CONF3. They fly the whole thing in CONF3?
What about the 10min TOGA limit?
The EOSID on RWY15 (I'm talking ENGINE OUT people, PLEASE RTFQ) is to go straight out for 11DME CS (the VOR), then make the turn (right) back to CS. The idea being (I presume) to put you in the valley out there and then start your manoeuvre back to CS within it.
If you operate an Airbus into CNS and the SOP is to delay accel until the turn is complete, what does your company tell you for an EOSID GA?
If making the approach in CONF FULL, the GA will be CONF3. They fly the whole thing in CONF3?
What about the 10min TOGA limit?
You like insulting people don't you.
Most EOSID's that I have seen turn at departure end of the runway out over the water. This is, I think, where the confusion is setting in.
I have not seen, nor have I ever designed, an engine out contingency procedure that goes up the valley
Most EOSID's that I have seen turn at departure end of the runway out over the water. This is, I think, where the confusion is setting in.
I have not seen, nor have I ever designed, an engine out contingency procedure that goes up the valley