Airservices Australia...Flex routes and Sydney curfew
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Airservices Australia...Flex routes and Sydney curfew
So Airservices Australia publishes "flex" routes daily from various ports to Sydney to optimize fuel burn and take advantage of the most favourable winds, and the same office that generates these routes also runs a program to penalise ("deprioritize")
flights that gain too much advantage of their wonderful "flex tracks" and arrive too far ahead of schedule....
....so what is the point of all of this?
Can flights departing, say Singapore for example, delay their boarding and pushback etc in anticipation of the quicker than average flight time, to try to avoid the penalty at the other end, or does the airport want the gate vacated for the next user....
Kind of defeats the purpose to optimize fuel burn in the cruise only to lose all the benefit in a holding pattern at 20,000 ft for half an hour due too early for curfew or hit with "deprioritization"!
flights that gain too much advantage of their wonderful "flex tracks" and arrive too far ahead of schedule....
....so what is the point of all of this?
Can flights departing, say Singapore for example, delay their boarding and pushback etc in anticipation of the quicker than average flight time, to try to avoid the penalty at the other end, or does the airport want the gate vacated for the next user....
Kind of defeats the purpose to optimize fuel burn in the cruise only to lose all the benefit in a holding pattern at 20,000 ft for half an hour due too early for curfew or hit with "deprioritization"!
The tracks are published well in advance of departure times and the time intervals calculated are available. If the aircraft has to arrive after 6am due to a curfew, surely this is a very simple calculation the airlines can make and do their own adjustments on ETD? I understand about the gate availability, but delays and gate changes happen all the time - I'm sure the airport can cope....
Arigato,
Showa Cho.
Arigato,
Showa Cho.
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Tried the old remote hold request at BKK a few months back, only to be met with unable etc etc.
Slowed down enroute to meet a crossing restriction and not with standing some of the dumbass last minute delays dished out by Oz ATC, it seemed to be the best option without wasting gas.
Slowed down enroute to meet a crossing restriction and not with standing some of the dumbass last minute delays dished out by Oz ATC, it seemed to be the best option without wasting gas.
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haughtney, compare Australian arrivals into places like the UK & US. Be honest now 
I'm genuinely interested. Are there any formalised en-route delay programs or do you just lob up & cop whatever the delay is?
What's the worst delay you got in the: US, UK, UAE, Australia?
I'm genuinely interested. Are there any formalised en-route delay programs or do you just lob up & cop whatever the delay is?What's the worst delay you got in the: US, UK, UAE, Australia?
So Airservices Australia publishes "flex" routes daily from various ports to Sydney to optimize fuel burn and take advantage of the most favourable winds, and the same office that generates these routes also runs a program to penalise ("deprioritize") flights that gain too much advantage of their wonderful "flex tracks" and arrive too far ahead of schedule....
....so what is the point of all of this?
....so what is the point of all of this?
Are you saying that the flex track was too efficient or did you simply fail to do your maths? Often I see aircraft arrive earlier than gate slot, was their flex track too efficient, or is it another case of the pilot not doing their maths? Or, is on-time performance (as measured reference the ETD) taking precedence over common-sense?
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No worries Porter, Im always honest 
In terms of time, worst delay airborne was the UAE, issued an EAT for 2hrs and 50 minutes after our scheduled arrival at the holding fix, apparently due to Fog and the fact that the airport had just reopened after the supposed 100% backup electrical system for the airfield failed
On the ground, JFK, number 90-ish for departure, the controller would issue "all aircraft on taxiway xx...gentlemen start your engines!"
Enroute, into LHR, slowed down, vectored then held at biggin for about 40 minutes, again due to LVP's
For pure pain in the arse, and I started a thread about it, ANY late notification of a delay into an Oz airport when you aren't expecting it
The US, EU, UK do a great job of sharing info and passing delays on, in the UAE I expect a minimum of 20 minutes, in Oz...nobody knows from one day to next
In terms of time, worst delay airborne was the UAE, issued an EAT for 2hrs and 50 minutes after our scheduled arrival at the holding fix, apparently due to Fog and the fact that the airport had just reopened after the supposed 100% backup electrical system for the airfield failed
On the ground, JFK, number 90-ish for departure, the controller would issue "all aircraft on taxiway xx...gentlemen start your engines!"
Enroute, into LHR, slowed down, vectored then held at biggin for about 40 minutes, again due to LVP's
For pure pain in the arse, and I started a thread about it, ANY late notification of a delay into an Oz airport when you aren't expecting it
The US, EU, UK do a great job of sharing info and passing delays on, in the UAE I expect a minimum of 20 minutes, in Oz...nobody knows from one day to next
Sunny, talking from experience I can tell you the "agreed to by industry" is a smoke screen used by Airservices to push blame on less than stellar thinking to someone else.
Meetings where these sorts of things are discussed are very general in nature and often not that productive.
I was party to one meeting where Airservices wanted us to hit a feeder fix time in the right hour, we asked the question whether that should be minute, but no it was hour...
In terms of hitting feeder fix times, I don't do ultra long haul, but we don't get feeder fix times until within a couple of hundred miles. The new Sydney thing whose acronym I have consigned to the dustbin of my mind accepted.
Where we have been advised of a feeder fix time before departure and the flight time is sufficiently shortened by a decent tailwind, we try to hold on the gate, after profuse apologies to the punters who don't understand, but often the gates are needed for other flights, particularly the wide body gates, so in that case we push and go and taxi somewhere out of the way until we can depart and hit the feeder fix time.
I have, on occasions, held on the gate, done the whole trip at min speed and still had to descend and slow down further with vectors to absorb further delays.
You wonder if it would be better to take the punt, depart on time, cruise over at normal speed and take your chances with a delay - more often than not you would whistle on through.
Other little annoyances conspire to reduce pilot enthusiasm - I was watching and listening to Emirates and Qantas 380's inbound to Sydney last week. The QF one was in front (by a reasonable amount if TCAS was to be believed) and the sequence put them behind the EK machine. The EK machine got sped up, track shortened and speed cancelled while the QF machine got slowed down, vectored and generally shafted. If the radio chatter was to be believed the QF machine had been in front all the way from Dubai. Blind freddy could have seen that the sequence didn't make sense. Do you think it likely that the guys in the QF machine are going to bus their balls to make it all work when they get stuffed around at the end? Unlikely I would have thought.
At the same time, I got slowed down, vectored around and pushed over to 34R with nothing on 34L and landed at 0605 - and we were told by the tower controller we were the first to land on 34R. Fair enough pushing a domestic wide body over to 34R if traffic requires it, but we could have been on the gate (or close to) if we had landed at 0600 - regardless of whether we landed on L or R.
Meetings where these sorts of things are discussed are very general in nature and often not that productive.
I was party to one meeting where Airservices wanted us to hit a feeder fix time in the right hour, we asked the question whether that should be minute, but no it was hour...
In terms of hitting feeder fix times, I don't do ultra long haul, but we don't get feeder fix times until within a couple of hundred miles. The new Sydney thing whose acronym I have consigned to the dustbin of my mind accepted.
Where we have been advised of a feeder fix time before departure and the flight time is sufficiently shortened by a decent tailwind, we try to hold on the gate, after profuse apologies to the punters who don't understand, but often the gates are needed for other flights, particularly the wide body gates, so in that case we push and go and taxi somewhere out of the way until we can depart and hit the feeder fix time.
I have, on occasions, held on the gate, done the whole trip at min speed and still had to descend and slow down further with vectors to absorb further delays.
You wonder if it would be better to take the punt, depart on time, cruise over at normal speed and take your chances with a delay - more often than not you would whistle on through.
Other little annoyances conspire to reduce pilot enthusiasm - I was watching and listening to Emirates and Qantas 380's inbound to Sydney last week. The QF one was in front (by a reasonable amount if TCAS was to be believed) and the sequence put them behind the EK machine. The EK machine got sped up, track shortened and speed cancelled while the QF machine got slowed down, vectored and generally shafted. If the radio chatter was to be believed the QF machine had been in front all the way from Dubai. Blind freddy could have seen that the sequence didn't make sense. Do you think it likely that the guys in the QF machine are going to bus their balls to make it all work when they get stuffed around at the end? Unlikely I would have thought.
At the same time, I got slowed down, vectored around and pushed over to 34R with nothing on 34L and landed at 0605 - and we were told by the tower controller we were the first to land on 34R. Fair enough pushing a domestic wide body over to 34R if traffic requires it, but we could have been on the gate (or close to) if we had landed at 0600 - regardless of whether we landed on L or R.
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SunnySA,
I have been in the position of pushing back on time, fly at virtually minimum cruise speed (certainly slower than flight planned speed), arrive at the feeder fix exactly on time, and then been given holding.
I have been in the position of pushing back on time, fly at virtually minimum cruise speed (certainly slower than flight planned speed), arrive at the feeder fix exactly on time, and then been given holding.
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hautney, ta. So the only complaint you've got is the short notice of delay? Does your company take notice when voice this? ASA jumps higher than NicNat when Qantas bitches & moans, might be worth pushing it.
A couple of things, the ATC's on that sector used to be senior & quite experienced, not so much any more. Any sector controller worth their salt would see that situation, have chat to the Flo & get those 2 flights exchanged. Any Flo worth their salt would have exchanged them prior to the sector controller having to call them. Those vectors, track shortening etc would have taken quite a bit of effort to ensure that a slot wasn't lost apart from the fact that you've got 2 crews that have been in the air for 14 hours.
You guys have got to understand that ASA (not necessarily the ATC's) genuinely believe that that they are the best ANSP in the world, they really do. There have been no real increase in ATC numbers over the last 10 years even though the traffic numbers have risen remarkably. The back office numbers have risen remarkably, yes really. I doubt that too many line controllers have any input into was goes on in these scenarios. After all, the back office (Canberra) are ATC haters.
I was watching and listening to Emirates and Qantas 380's inbound to Sydney last week. The QF one was in front (by a reasonable amount if TCAS was to be believed) and the sequence put them behind the EK machine. The EK machine got sped up, track shortened and speed cancelled while the QF machine got slowed down, vectored and generally shafted. If the radio chatter was to be believed the QF machine had been in front all the way from Dubai. Blind freddy could have seen that the sequence didn't make sense.
You guys have got to understand that ASA (not necessarily the ATC's) genuinely believe that that they are the best ANSP in the world, they really do. There have been no real increase in ATC numbers over the last 10 years even though the traffic numbers have risen remarkably. The back office numbers have risen remarkably, yes really. I doubt that too many line controllers have any input into was goes on in these scenarios. After all, the back office (Canberra) are ATC haters.
Emirates and Qantas 380's inbound to Sydney last week. The QF one was in front (by a reasonable amount if TCAS was to be believed) and the sequence put them behind the EK machine. The EK machine got sped up, track shortened and speed cancelled while the QF machine got slowed down, vectored and generally shafted.
Thread Starter
Airservices Australia...Flex routes and Sydney curfew
The point I wanted to make in the first place, is that the "non-compliant" flights are penalized for reasons beyond their control. No widebody long-haul flights depart early...they get the wind component they get...they can't slow down much in cruise....
This will be the next brilliant ASA " "National Operations Centre" programme; a stretched, more circuitous "Flex" route to negate a favorable component so that they arrive on schedule.....oh, but wait, the NOC will require additional staff to implement this programme...Yeah! Ripper!
This will be the next brilliant ASA " "National Operations Centre" programme; a stretched, more circuitous "Flex" route to negate a favorable component so that they arrive on schedule.....oh, but wait, the NOC will require additional staff to implement this programme...Yeah! Ripper!
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This is a regular topic of conversation amongst controllers, please please believe that we are just as perplexed as you are! The stated divide between controllers and Airservices corporate is huge, we wish they would listen to us.
The fact that some boffins in Canberra issue times for "non-compliant" aircraft, and we pass them, ATC cannot actually do anything until Sydney Flow arrives and configures the sequence! How silly do we feel telling you blokes that after a long haul flight?
The fact that some boffins in Canberra issue times for "non-compliant" aircraft, and we pass them, ATC cannot actually do anything until Sydney Flow arrives and configures the sequence! How silly do we feel telling you blokes that after a long haul flight?
