Air NZ announcement
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One can just hope that those 'Training' staff wont make it through the R2G interview, or perhaps elect to retire in peace.
btw, a couple of very experienced jet captains recently not only had no problem with the training - they commended it. Possibly helped by the fact that both turned up accepting the fact that this job was completely different and they had a lot to learn. Yes, they'd done it all before - but it was a long time ago. Sometimes 'experience' can work against you if you're not willing or able to get over your ego.
Sheesh. Talk about broken records. Anyway, that's it from me - Happy landings!
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Aeolus2000BC, I think the internet is now fully aquatinted with your deep set hatred of Eagle. While there have been a number of posts emphasising how Eagle has changed since your highly enjoyable time there, you appear fixated on reminding everyone about the terrible stories you have heard about Eagle c&t. 
Maybe time to get back to the discussion of the 100+ guys and girls who face an uncertain transition over the next 18 months?
Maybe time to get back to the discussion of the 100+ guys and girls who face an uncertain transition over the next 18 months?
Aeolus2000BC
From what I've heard of recent times much of what you're saying is ancient history and in many cases embellished with time. People I know that work there are pretty happy campers all round except for the recent announcement re the future of Eagle.
Re the Pt 61 IR renewal. I seem to remember it used to be a requirement for all starts at Eagle to have a current IR. Perhaps said T/Capt wasn't being the d-head you suggest but was just covering this requirement.
I think perhaps you've only heard one side of the story. Having been aware of both sides of a story similar to what you mention, it was quite enlightening to hear what the person involved was purporting to have happened.
From what I've heard of recent times much of what you're saying is ancient history and in many cases embellished with time. People I know that work there are pretty happy campers all round except for the recent announcement re the future of Eagle.
Re the Pt 61 IR renewal. I seem to remember it used to be a requirement for all starts at Eagle to have a current IR. Perhaps said T/Capt wasn't being the d-head you suggest but was just covering this requirement.
I think perhaps you've only heard one side of the story. Having been aware of both sides of a story similar to what you mention, it was quite enlightening to hear what the person involved was purporting to have happened.
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fixated on reminding everyone about the terrible stories you have heard about Eagle c&t.
Maybe time to get back to the discussion of the 100+ guys and girls who face an uncertain transition over the next 18 months?
Maybe time to get back to the discussion of the 100+ guys and girls who face an uncertain transition over the next 18 months?
Maybe it is a good reminder of just what this aviation industry is like.
Maybe there is something to be learned from the past so it isn't repeated.
Maybe it's just great to reminisce with a bit of nostalgia.
I don't think the stories should be swept under the carpet.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Yes Eagle represents the very worst of what Air NZ had to offer in days gone by, however if it wasn't a good fit for anyone - there was always other Jobs. I didn't like it particularly and left, without a doubt certain C&T Capts needed to be ejected from a great height. These people have a nasty habit of weesling there way into better jobs and as I've heard gone to Mt Cook and Air NZ - one would hope they get what they deserve stepping back into the trainee seat. There were a few good training people though so I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush by any stretch
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This recently surfaced at the last BBQ- (dated Apr 2013)
A night operations restriction was brought in a number of years ago as a result of concerns from a significant number of Line Captains who had experienced a poorly handled First Officer night landing. In the Captains view they posed an unacceptable risk of damage to the aircraft. In addition they maintained that as they were not trained as a Training Captain they did not have the expertise to intervene successfully in such cases to be confident the risk of damage could be avoided.
Against these concerns the First Officer ‘night restriction’ was implemented.
Note this restriction only applies to the first year (ref T&S 4.2.3).
The night restriction pertains specifically to night landings. Night takeoff and enroute operations are not restricted (this point is not clear and will be clarified in an upcoming amendment).
To be approved for night operations, a First Officer must demonstrate to a Training Captain over a minimum of two night sectors knowledge of night considerations and restrictions as well as competence in physically landing the aircraft at night.
So it seems
- Eagle does NOT TRAIN F/Os - if they did then this issue would never have arisen
- OR - the demonic Trg Capt Gods are making mountains just to elevate themselves to FL GOD
Approved to do a 'Night T/O and en-route' but not a night landing ?????????
- How the hell does Ryanair/Easyjet and all the other LCs survive with 200hr (ok 300hr) F/Os in 737/320s ?
- God damit - its just a B1900 - which by the way is a very stable acft and a delight to fly.
AND - this is the real concern --[I]'
'...as they were not trained as a Training Captain they did not have the expertise to intervene successfully in such cases to be confident the risk of damage could be avoided.'
So what ever happened to the Capts call - "I HAVE CONTROL". This is 100% SOP everywhere else in the world - ie. Capts always have the authority to take control. It is deemed that as a Capt you have the skills to take control when you feel it is necessary. BUT - it seems some Eagle Capts did not feel they had that authority OR ability ??
With this revelation, it seems Eagle was well past its sell by date.
A night operations restriction was brought in a number of years ago as a result of concerns from a significant number of Line Captains who had experienced a poorly handled First Officer night landing. In the Captains view they posed an unacceptable risk of damage to the aircraft. In addition they maintained that as they were not trained as a Training Captain they did not have the expertise to intervene successfully in such cases to be confident the risk of damage could be avoided.
Against these concerns the First Officer ‘night restriction’ was implemented.
Note this restriction only applies to the first year (ref T&S 4.2.3).
The night restriction pertains specifically to night landings. Night takeoff and enroute operations are not restricted (this point is not clear and will be clarified in an upcoming amendment).
To be approved for night operations, a First Officer must demonstrate to a Training Captain over a minimum of two night sectors knowledge of night considerations and restrictions as well as competence in physically landing the aircraft at night.
So it seems
- Eagle does NOT TRAIN F/Os - if they did then this issue would never have arisen
- OR - the demonic Trg Capt Gods are making mountains just to elevate themselves to FL GOD
Approved to do a 'Night T/O and en-route' but not a night landing ?????????
- How the hell does Ryanair/Easyjet and all the other LCs survive with 200hr (ok 300hr) F/Os in 737/320s ?
- God damit - its just a B1900 - which by the way is a very stable acft and a delight to fly.
AND - this is the real concern --[I]'
'...as they were not trained as a Training Captain they did not have the expertise to intervene successfully in such cases to be confident the risk of damage could be avoided.'
So what ever happened to the Capts call - "I HAVE CONTROL". This is 100% SOP everywhere else in the world - ie. Capts always have the authority to take control. It is deemed that as a Capt you have the skills to take control when you feel it is necessary. BUT - it seems some Eagle Capts did not feel they had that authority OR ability ??
With this revelation, it seems Eagle was well past its sell by date.
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Sorry but you have no idea about what you are talking about. As a former Training Captain at Eagle there were very good reasons for the implementation of this policy. A lot of new hires at Eagle had very limited night experience, new hires employed over summer would not have any night landings during their training, and night landings at WK, AP, GS, WU etc. are very different to landing at AA, WN or CH.
With regard to the Captains not being Training Captains. The point there is they are not in a position to give instruction in night landings. There has never been a problem with taking control.
With regard to the Captains not being Training Captains. The point there is they are not in a position to give instruction in night landings. There has never been a problem with taking control.
A check and trainer on the jet fleet told me a couple of days ago that there will be 50 new hires this year. As usual it is still very fluid and can change very quickly. Reason is because of the delayed retirement of the 767. They're not sure how they're going to approach the hiring/start dates as they would prefer to suck up the Eagle pilots but still have guys and girls waiting on yes letters from othe links. 2 mt cook, 2 air nsn and 5 eagle pilots to be given a start soon.
Best of luck to all you Eagle pilots out there.
Best of luck to all you Eagle pilots out there.
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Another Mystry ?
Big BALLS
Approved to do a 'Night T/O and en-route' but not a night landing ?????????
- How the hell does Ryanair/Easyjet and all the other LCs survive with 200hr (ok 300hr) F/Os in 737/320s ?
Eagle required new pilots to have a min of 750TT ?
Ryanair/Easyjet take cadets with 200hrs and ONLY the min night hours required for licence issue.
We see no difference in their experience. Its all down to TRAINING.
A lot of new hires at Eagle had very limited night experience, new hires employed over summer would not have any night landings during their training, and night landings at WK, AP, GS, WU etc. are very different to landing at AA, WN or CH.
As stated earlier - EAGLE DOES NOT TRAIN. If Eagle did train, then before releasing a F/O to line, you would have done NIGHT CIRCUITS. All the acft are on the ground by 2030/2100 local so acft availability could not have been an excuse.
Night landings at WK,AP,GS,WU are different ??
- Sorry, lots of us here have landed at these airports at night. Nothing special?
One colleague here reminded us of the grand cinematic training video of 'How to land at Whangarei'. You know, the airport that Eagle landed illegally in the wet for years. Something about a 30ft threshold crossing height used to calculate the wet LDA but it seems there was no CAA authorisation ?
- I bet that video is not on You Tube!
Approved to do a 'Night T/O and en-route' but not a night landing ?????????
- How the hell does Ryanair/Easyjet and all the other LCs survive with 200hr (ok 300hr) F/Os in 737/320s ?
Eagle required new pilots to have a min of 750TT ?
Ryanair/Easyjet take cadets with 200hrs and ONLY the min night hours required for licence issue.
We see no difference in their experience. Its all down to TRAINING.
A lot of new hires at Eagle had very limited night experience, new hires employed over summer would not have any night landings during their training, and night landings at WK, AP, GS, WU etc. are very different to landing at AA, WN or CH.
As stated earlier - EAGLE DOES NOT TRAIN. If Eagle did train, then before releasing a F/O to line, you would have done NIGHT CIRCUITS. All the acft are on the ground by 2030/2100 local so acft availability could not have been an excuse.
Night landings at WK,AP,GS,WU are different ??
- Sorry, lots of us here have landed at these airports at night. Nothing special?
One colleague here reminded us of the grand cinematic training video of 'How to land at Whangarei'. You know, the airport that Eagle landed illegally in the wet for years. Something about a 30ft threshold crossing height used to calculate the wet LDA but it seems there was no CAA authorisation ?
- I bet that video is not on You Tube!
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I will say it again, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
You clearly have issues with Eagle, I'm not wasting my time arguing the rights and wrongs of Eagle policies with you.
The 35' TCH was approved by CAA until a couple of years ago when they decided to withdraw their approval. At which point Eagle adopted a 50' TCH.
What the hell is wrong with an airport briefing? Air NZ has these for nearly all the airports they operate in to!!
You clearly have issues with Eagle, I'm not wasting my time arguing the rights and wrongs of Eagle policies with you.
The 35' TCH was approved by CAA until a couple of years ago when they decided to withdraw their approval. At which point Eagle adopted a 50' TCH.
What the hell is wrong with an airport briefing? Air NZ has these for nearly all the airports they operate in to!!
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surely, candidates (f/o's) have 1. a type rating, and 2. atleast a cpl and instrument rating which requires demonstration of night competency.
agreed, line capts should not be considered, nor required to be pseudo instructors beyond the normal development of line f/o's
if otherwise competent f/o's still have landing restrictions for standard line operations to airports in the regular schedule then by definition the training is either insufficient or incomplete.
agreed, line capts should not be considered, nor required to be pseudo instructors beyond the normal development of line f/o's
if otherwise competent f/o's still have landing restrictions for standard line operations to airports in the regular schedule then by definition the training is either insufficient or incomplete.
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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50 new jet positions in the next 12 months is the word fellas. The delayed 767 exit has kicked it back into high gear.
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There is a extremely high turnover of cabin attendants.
They also probably wanted to get in right before Emirates do their recruiting, which has just kicked off here.
They also probably wanted to get in right before Emirates do their recruiting, which has just kicked off here.
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There is a extremely high turnover of cabin attendants.
They also probably wanted to get in right before Emirates do their recruiting, which has just kicked off here.
They also probably wanted to get in right before Emirates do their recruiting, which has just kicked off here.
- 763: staying around for another couple of years
- 789: fleet increasing to 12 (Potential for extra to join)
- 320: Fleet up to 28 by the end of 2015 (733s only had 3x FA)
- ATR: Fleet growing to 18
- 321NEO: Around two years away, but will require more FA than an 320.
- EZE/IAH: Both services will require extra FA's.
By 2020 NZ is gearing up to be a pretty large airline in the pacific, with Boeing/Airbus both public pushing that there in the process to trying to get orders from NZ, we could see allot change in the next couple of years.