Air NZ announcement
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Rumours can't be believed. You don't know where they started or if they were even told by someone in the know. Then chinese whispers takes place and you all know the end result. I'm sure most of the pilots given the circumstances won't need to re interview given practically all eagle pilots went through the R2G process. It wouldn't look good if pilots were made redundant when air NZ is growing.
As for recruitment, basically stopped I reckon. Guys on yes letters will unfortunately be on them for a while. Eagle crew will no doubt get preference
"10 pilots per aircraft? WTF, these aren't doing long haul you know"
It doesn't have to be long haul to have ten pilots per aircraft. You need that amount to cover leave, days off, rest periods, disrupts, stand bys etc etc. what it means us that there are pretty much 5 crew per aircraft.
It would be nice if people didn't speculate. If you know info and want to post it great but don't just say oh I heard from a mate of a mate of a mate who's fifth cousin works for eagle that so and so is going to happen.
Go get a life and show some respect
As for recruitment, basically stopped I reckon. Guys on yes letters will unfortunately be on them for a while. Eagle crew will no doubt get preference
"10 pilots per aircraft? WTF, these aren't doing long haul you know"
It doesn't have to be long haul to have ten pilots per aircraft. You need that amount to cover leave, days off, rest periods, disrupts, stand bys etc etc. what it means us that there are pretty much 5 crew per aircraft.
It would be nice if people didn't speculate. If you know info and want to post it great but don't just say oh I heard from a mate of a mate of a mate who's fifth cousin works for eagle that so and so is going to happen.
Go get a life and show some respect
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The days of a dodgy chieftain running on shoestrings are over, the regs and safety just won't allow it.
Air North for example ran for a number of years using Aero Commander 680FL' by 2, an Aero Commander 500, and eventually Herons.
It was all SPIFR, apart from the Herons, which had no auto pilot, a typical days run was RO-AA-KO-AA-GS-RO-AA-RO, one was also the ticket seller at the outstations, baggage loader, and any other task that was required. All this with a staff of no more than 4 full time pilots, and a couple of part timers required for right hand seat in the Herons.
It must have been a safe operation as I do not recall any accidents, and certainly no injuries to any Pax.
If it could be done then, I see no reason why someone could not step in to fill the gaps. From memory Bellair ran for some years with just an WK-AA-WK run, again SPIFR with an Aztec.
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I'm sure Sunair, Sounds, Golden Bay, etc will have done some number on an envelope now or in the past as to whether they can pick some routes up. Hopefully the Eagle wind-down will be a positive for GA in NZ. Lord knows it needs it.
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The time of these aged piston twins is over. Fuel prices alone (AVGAS) will be a show stopper despite all the other fees and duties to setup/run an Air Transport Operation. Just look at Mainland Air and their short-lived OR-CH service. It simply was not commercially viable. And also speaking as a passenger, who wants to cramp into an AZTEC and the likes, unpressurized exposed to all weather?!?
I think a small operator could snap up some niche market, perhaps WN-AP or WN-WS, and use a modern aircraft such as a PC-12 to serve it successfully.
I think a small operator could snap up some niche market, perhaps WN-AP or WN-WS, and use a modern aircraft such as a PC-12 to serve it successfully.
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Sounds Air have another Caravan coming out from the states so they will soon have 2 spare aircraft free to start new flights. Can see them easily doing both Taupo and Westport from their WLG hub.
Sunair could re-start the AKL to HLZ and KAT routes as its in the neighborhood. So when one airline pulls a route another operator fills the void.
For example WLG to WAG now is twice a day return with Sounds Air.
Sunair could re-start the AKL to HLZ and KAT routes as its in the neighborhood. So when one airline pulls a route another operator fills the void.
For example WLG to WAG now is twice a day return with Sounds Air.
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Sounds Air have another Caravan coming out from the states so they will soon have 2 spare aircraft free to start new flights. Can see them easily doing both Taupo and Westport from their WLG hub.
Nothings impossible but I think both TUO and WSZ are pushing what is achievable in a C208, certainly in terms of passenger acceptance. Happy to be proven wrong.
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Sunair was on One News tonight saying they're in discussions with Far North Council about a AKL-KAT service using a 12-seater aircraft with initial estimates of fares similar to exisiting AirNZ fares.
The aircraft type wasn't mentioned but they only have a fleet of 6 seater Aztecs, so they'll have to intro a new type or hope they don't notice that 2 Aztecs have 12 seats combined and the 2 pilot operation is not your normal airline multi crew set up
The aircraft type wasn't mentioned but they only have a fleet of 6 seater Aztecs, so they'll have to intro a new type or hope they don't notice that 2 Aztecs have 12 seats combined and the 2 pilot operation is not your normal airline multi crew set up
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Great Barrier has a Navajo/Cheiftain that sits in Kaitaia all day...
On existing fares, a quick back of the envelope figures, 4 pax each way would cover Kaitaia to Auckland in a Caravan. Loads would be around 1000kgs from Auckland and 1150kgs to Auckland. (No JetA1 in KT)
Depending on your overheads, 5-6 would turn a profit.
I don't know what Sunairs plan would be for a 12 seater. It could be a Caravan with the STC to carry 12. But like I said, 1000kgs out of Auckland with 20kg of baggage each, you would be planning on pax being 63kg.... Now I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, but a lot of the pax leaving KT are heavier than 63kg.
A figure of 9 pax would be more realistic.
A PC-12 would be similarly hard pressed and usually only carry 9 pax and at a much higher cost than a Van.
A King Air would be hard to turn a decent profit as would most twins.
On existing fares, a quick back of the envelope figures, 4 pax each way would cover Kaitaia to Auckland in a Caravan. Loads would be around 1000kgs from Auckland and 1150kgs to Auckland. (No JetA1 in KT)
Depending on your overheads, 5-6 would turn a profit.
I don't know what Sunairs plan would be for a 12 seater. It could be a Caravan with the STC to carry 12. But like I said, 1000kgs out of Auckland with 20kg of baggage each, you would be planning on pax being 63kg.... Now I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, but a lot of the pax leaving KT are heavier than 63kg.
A figure of 9 pax would be more realistic.
A PC-12 would be similarly hard pressed and usually only carry 9 pax and at a much higher cost than a Van.
A King Air would be hard to turn a decent profit as would most twins.
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Sorry Prospector,
Eagle never had a fatal accident that I can remember. You might have just as safe memories of GA but in my time light twins have crashed and killed pax in air transport ops all over the country. The Chieftain off Invercargill, the other one on approach into Christchurch, the Queen Air out of Hamilton, Christian aviation on the arc into Rotorua/Taupo?, Nomad into the glacier. Soundsair C208 into a hill, I could go on and on. There was a while there when the UK with 15 times our population had zero fatal air transport ops accidents over an 8 year period when we had 7 fatal CFIT in GA.
You were 105 times more likely to die in GA in NZ than the UK. SPIFR Piston twins aren't safe, when viewed from what the public in the 21st century expects.
Crap autopilots, bad deicing, anything with carbs, well I suppose anything with pistons, single pilot ops that have zero margin for error etc etc etc.
Flame away. I survived it, plenty of my mates didn't.
Eagle never had a fatal accident that I can remember. You might have just as safe memories of GA but in my time light twins have crashed and killed pax in air transport ops all over the country. The Chieftain off Invercargill, the other one on approach into Christchurch, the Queen Air out of Hamilton, Christian aviation on the arc into Rotorua/Taupo?, Nomad into the glacier. Soundsair C208 into a hill, I could go on and on. There was a while there when the UK with 15 times our population had zero fatal air transport ops accidents over an 8 year period when we had 7 fatal CFIT in GA.
You were 105 times more likely to die in GA in NZ than the UK. SPIFR Piston twins aren't safe, when viewed from what the public in the 21st century expects.
Crap autopilots, bad deicing, anything with carbs, well I suppose anything with pistons, single pilot ops that have zero margin for error etc etc etc.
Flame away. I survived it, plenty of my mates didn't.
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Flame away. I survived it, plenty of my mates didn't.
One only has to look at the so called safe operations, with multi pilot crew,modern aircraft and state of the art electronics, the backing of multiple experts to see that safety is not created by layers of so called expertise. One persons wrong decision at the wrong time can erode all those safety layers. My example is the obvious one, Erebus, but the Kaimai prang, the stuffed up approach into Palmerston North, parking the TEAL electra in multiple pieces all over the runway at Whenapai, the DC8 at Mangere, were all examples of layers of safety gone wrong.
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Use the old fashioned test. Would you put your wife and kids on a SPIFR piston twin on a dark and stormy night? I know I wouldn't. It was the most rewarding but far and away the most dangerous flying I ever did.
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ElZilcho is right regarding the re-interviewing process for current link pilots. As it stands, it is the current situation. No roumer here. A couple of experienced guys I know (1 has been in the links for just under 20 years, who is a training captain) say they do not qualify for a 'transfer' interview as they do not have UE.
I personally think it could be handled better.
I personally think it could be handled better.
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ZKSUJ,
Straight from the Air New Zealand careers website:
So unless the guys you know haven't got their ATPLs then I think they will be fine.
Straight from the Air New Zealand careers website:
Candidates who do not hold UE but who have attained all 7 NZCAA ATPL exam credits will also be considered to have met the 'equivalence' standard, providing they have achieved the minimum numeracy and literacy standards required for UE. The ATPL equivalence is subject to the pass/fail conditions described in Chart 2 below.
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Realistically, not true unfortunately. Know a few guys with the ATPL licence itself who didn't even get a link interview without UE. Supply and Demand..
Last edited by seneca208; 12th Nov 2014 at 21:32.
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Quote:
" no I think a lower cost operator will come in & work in with NZ like Vincent used to. Very unlikely - for three destinations?????????? Because in reality that's all you're talking about "
No there are other routes, either not serviced or only served by NZ.
eg. WKA is trying to get an operator to fly back in & will underwrite flights.
The Beech 1900 is a very expensive aircraft to operate. Have to told by those who would know, that can operate a Saab 340B for around the same price & have 15 more seats.
Catch is whether a Saab can get into WKA, but am sure have seen a 146 at WKA (maybe it flew in with no passengers during Warbirds).
For anyone wanting to Wanaka, ZQN is a good hours drive away & in winter the range road can be a bit tricky if even a slight amount of snow.
What about the old WKA/CHC route & also WKA/WLG ?
Plus has Masterton/AKL been sorted now that Vincent is gone ? No one wanst to fly Masterton/AKL in a metro, but ATR's are too big for many routes.
So a Saab 340 or maybe a dash 8-200 might be required.
" no I think a lower cost operator will come in & work in with NZ like Vincent used to. Very unlikely - for three destinations?????????? Because in reality that's all you're talking about "
No there are other routes, either not serviced or only served by NZ.
eg. WKA is trying to get an operator to fly back in & will underwrite flights.
The Beech 1900 is a very expensive aircraft to operate. Have to told by those who would know, that can operate a Saab 340B for around the same price & have 15 more seats.
Catch is whether a Saab can get into WKA, but am sure have seen a 146 at WKA (maybe it flew in with no passengers during Warbirds).
For anyone wanting to Wanaka, ZQN is a good hours drive away & in winter the range road can be a bit tricky if even a slight amount of snow.
What about the old WKA/CHC route & also WKA/WLG ?
Plus has Masterton/AKL been sorted now that Vincent is gone ? No one wanst to fly Masterton/AKL in a metro, but ATR's are too big for many routes.
So a Saab 340 or maybe a dash 8-200 might be required.
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With regard to UE equivalency standard using ATPL's.
You have to read the full chapter as a ATPL doesn't meet the equivalency test on its own.
If you have failed one theory subject twice or more, or you've failed more than 2 theory subjects just once; or, you fail a flight test twice, you fail the equivalency test. I believe the take into account the CPL/IFR exams/flight tests as well.
So you can still have an ATPL but with several attempts at exams and flight tests before issue and therefore not meet AirNZ's requirements.
Disclaimer: I'm not 100% on the above but pretty close in sure. Look up the AirNZ recruitment site for the latest.
S2k
You have to read the full chapter as a ATPL doesn't meet the equivalency test on its own.
If you have failed one theory subject twice or more, or you've failed more than 2 theory subjects just once; or, you fail a flight test twice, you fail the equivalency test. I believe the take into account the CPL/IFR exams/flight tests as well.
So you can still have an ATPL but with several attempts at exams and flight tests before issue and therefore not meet AirNZ's requirements.
Disclaimer: I'm not 100% on the above but pretty close in sure. Look up the AirNZ recruitment site for the latest.
S2k
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I believe Sqwark has it right. An ATPL does not constitute UE. The thing here is some Eagle guys who will be unable to change fleets within the group due to this so effectively will be redundant as a result.
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I hold an ATPL with a bit fair more flying under my belt than the average successful applicant, but no ue and 12 years ago I failed a cpl exam twice (p of f I think) in the not so long ago days of self study with rag tag hand-me-down notes. I was essentially told by HR that I won't get a chance to work for Air NZ.
Its a bit of a kick in the guts to basically be told don't bother, being that it was flying with them on the old 737 200s and Air Nelson (pre koru) metros as 6 year old UM that made me want to work for them ever since.
Now that they are basically the only airline here these days, the chances of that long dreamed of airline career in nz is practically zero.
Be bloody great if Qantas sent over some of those lovely Q400s to go up and down the main trunk and to the major regions connecting with their 737s,- and maybe some of the good 3rd level operators like Sounds connecting the smaller regions to them as well. I reckon that would be alright, bit of competition and the smaller regions not left out !
Its a bit of a kick in the guts to basically be told don't bother, being that it was flying with them on the old 737 200s and Air Nelson (pre koru) metros as 6 year old UM that made me want to work for them ever since.
Now that they are basically the only airline here these days, the chances of that long dreamed of airline career in nz is practically zero.
Be bloody great if Qantas sent over some of those lovely Q400s to go up and down the main trunk and to the major regions connecting with their 737s,- and maybe some of the good 3rd level operators like Sounds connecting the smaller regions to them as well. I reckon that would be alright, bit of competition and the smaller regions not left out !