RWY Incursion TWB; Skytrans and Cesna.
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RWY Incursion TWB; Skytrans and Cesna.
Well well well;
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5248467...-061_final.pdf
It pays to have headsets on and radio speaker on
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5248467...-061_final.pdf
It pays to have headsets on and radio speaker on
Cactus, where does it state the dash crew were at fault? I'm glad I never had the pleasure (I'm sure it would be as you are obviously holier than though
) of meeting you.
) of meeting you.
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I sometimes wonder when the inevitable runway incursion occurs because a crew is attempting to complete one of those fifty item taxi checklists full of completely irrelevant cr..p, repeated items ad nausium, unnecessary systems checks, all completely out of sync with normal workload, so in between ATC interruptions,attempting to ensure your following your cleared taxi route, continually holding the checklist against all recommended safe practice because some totally inexperienced FOI ******'s opinion counts for more than manufacturers direction....Gasp!
The sad thing, when it occurs, the poor old CP will wear it.
The FOI who insisted on it, because they are the experts with or without even a type rating on the aircraft, will deny all knowledge...no, no no, Milud, we don't "approve", we "accept".
God help the poor CP under Australia's totally screwed up system.
The sad thing, when it occurs, the poor old CP will wear it.
The FOI who insisted on it, because they are the experts with or without even a type rating on the aircraft, will deny all knowledge...no, no no, Milud, we don't "approve", we "accept".
God help the poor CP under Australia's totally screwed up system.
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Dashcapt reading the the report does seems to indicate they were at fault. Something does seem a bit off. The only way I could see hem not being at fault if the cessna radio was u/s. Even then they still must not have had much of a look before entering the runway.
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SOP's should require transponder/TCAS ON prior to taxi at such aerodromes. Certainly has given me a better picture of traffic, prior to any radio calls - non transponder aircraft excepted of course. Stopping at the holding point is also a good practice for such reasons as then BOTH pilots can look L & R.
The TCAS must have been a crew mistake as the FO looked down at the TCAS display to check for traffic whilst taxiing out. The Captain then looked down at the TCAS after seeing the Cessna and stopping to find it was on stby. One can then reasonably assume he thought it should be on.
Also TCAS would not have given any Aural alert while the Dash was on the ground, what alert was the Captain expecting????
Did the Cessna ( yes 2 S's ) have his landing lights on?
Also TCAS would not have given any Aural alert while the Dash was on the ground, what alert was the Captain expecting????
Did the Cessna ( yes 2 S's ) have his landing lights on?
I am with Thorn Bird on this.
Why, oh why, do operators still transmit on CTAF, then go off that frequency to yap to Centre to initiate SAR and get known traffic, instead of contacting Centre first, then switching to, and staying on, CTAF until clear of the circuit?
Also, why are operators still in the stone age with their lengthy taxi and pre take off checklists when, with a little thought and at the cost of maybe 90 seconds, most of this stuff could be done before moving off the ramp? As for SOPs that require conversations with the instruments and nav aids while on taxy, don't get me started. And is a 'standard' briefing (which is no doubt regurgitated every sector) really so riveting that it must be done to the exclusion of building the bigger picture by monitoring CTAF in the last five minutes before starting? P!ss poor preparation personified.
This incident was reported, but other similar events have occurred and often have involved professional crews so tied up in their own SOPs that they simply had no idea that Farmer Brown was there and actually making calls on CTAF in an attempt to do the right thing.
Skytrans are not the first and they won't be the last, so it's a bit unfair to single them out. The problem with the stall warning system would have been a distraction, so surely is mitigating given their complex and detailed SOP.
Rather than dump on the Company, look at the 'system' that CASA has encouraged operators to adopt.
Why, oh why, do operators still transmit on CTAF, then go off that frequency to yap to Centre to initiate SAR and get known traffic, instead of contacting Centre first, then switching to, and staying on, CTAF until clear of the circuit?
Also, why are operators still in the stone age with their lengthy taxi and pre take off checklists when, with a little thought and at the cost of maybe 90 seconds, most of this stuff could be done before moving off the ramp? As for SOPs that require conversations with the instruments and nav aids while on taxy, don't get me started. And is a 'standard' briefing (which is no doubt regurgitated every sector) really so riveting that it must be done to the exclusion of building the bigger picture by monitoring CTAF in the last five minutes before starting? P!ss poor preparation personified.
This incident was reported, but other similar events have occurred and often have involved professional crews so tied up in their own SOPs that they simply had no idea that Farmer Brown was there and actually making calls on CTAF in an attempt to do the right thing.
Skytrans are not the first and they won't be the last, so it's a bit unfair to single them out. The problem with the stall warning system would have been a distraction, so surely is mitigating given their complex and detailed SOP.
Rather than dump on the Company, look at the 'system' that CASA has encouraged operators to adopt.
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Why, oh why, do operators still transmit on CTAF, then go off that frequency to yap to Centre to initiate SAR and get known traffic, instead of contacting Centre first, then switching to, and staying on, CTAF until clear of the circuit?
contacting Centre first, then switching to, and staying on, CTAF until clear of the circuit?
All two of 'em. Both no longer in existence, but not because of inefficiency on the part of their Pilots.
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Mack E...everything you said and more...
because it infuriates the heck out of me that we must accept unsafe practice because of the "OPINION" of some brainless **** who's a legend in their own mind.
Boeing 767 Standard Boeing before take off checklist:
Flaps....................................SET
CAsA required Citation C560 checklist for one operator 50 items!!
Then of course this will vary from one operator to the next, dependent on the FOI of the day....absolute insanity!!, but then Australia is THE WORLD LEADER in safety...NOT.
Minister WUSS, please put and end to this, before innocent people, who have no concept of the "mystic" of aviation and its manipulation by a completely inept, corrupt entity, are involved.
because it infuriates the heck out of me that we must accept unsafe practice because of the "OPINION" of some brainless **** who's a legend in their own mind.
Boeing 767 Standard Boeing before take off checklist:
Flaps....................................SET
CAsA required Citation C560 checklist for one operator 50 items!!
Then of course this will vary from one operator to the next, dependent on the FOI of the day....absolute insanity!!, but then Australia is THE WORLD LEADER in safety...NOT.
Minister WUSS, please put and end to this, before innocent people, who have no concept of the "mystic" of aviation and its manipulation by a completely inept, corrupt entity, are involved.
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Good to see the other big Dash operator (the one with the red tails) has several key SOP differences that would have helped in this event.
1. Active CTAF listening from first pax onboard
2. Headsets on for start
3. ATC taxi call before releasing park brake
4. 2 crew CTAF frequency confirmation before taxi
5. If CTAF gives a beep back then crew must re-confirm freq and/or talk to traffic to confirm frequency
6. Both crew heads free and looking prior to entering the runway.
It doesn't matter if the checklist has 50 items if they're all done and sorted before taxi. I'd hope Skytrans could learn a bit from this event and put most if not all of those QLK procedures in place.
1. Active CTAF listening from first pax onboard
2. Headsets on for start
3. ATC taxi call before releasing park brake
4. 2 crew CTAF frequency confirmation before taxi
5. If CTAF gives a beep back then crew must re-confirm freq and/or talk to traffic to confirm frequency
6. Both crew heads free and looking prior to entering the runway.
It doesn't matter if the checklist has 50 items if they're all done and sorted before taxi. I'd hope Skytrans could learn a bit from this event and put most if not all of those QLK procedures in place.
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That's quite a rosy interpretation of QLK procedures there Rog. But even dumbing them down slightly for what actually happens, yes, there are some low hanging fruit to be picked by SkyTrans management to improve CTAF safety.
I'd love to be heads free entering a runway. Maybe if I didn't have six company-mandated things to do, I could be!
There but for the grace of God go I...
I'd love to be heads free entering a runway. Maybe if I didn't have six company-mandated things to do, I could be!
There but for the grace of God go I...
Last edited by Oktas8; 14th Jul 2014 at 12:20.
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Good to see the other big Dash operator (the one with the red tails) has several key SOP differences that would have helped in this event.
Indeed! Now if only the flying rat caught on!!
Not monitoring CTAF and LISTENING properly to other transmissions from pilots already in the pattern amounts to a loss of SA.
Who has not at some point in their career been on finals at a CTAF field to find some joker taxiing for takeoff in the opposite direction to existing traffic?
Who has not at some point in their career been on finals at a CTAF field to find some joker taxiing for takeoff in the opposite direction to existing traffic?
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Dash8capt
Cactus, where does it state the dash crew were at fault? I'm glad I never had the pleasure (I'm sure it would be as you are obviously holier than though
) of meeting you.
Cactus, where does it state the dash crew were at fault? I'm glad I never had the pleasure (I'm sure it would be as you are obviously holier than though
) of meeting you.
I'm not holier than though, and I didn't write the report nor did I cause the runway incursion, and neither would I taxi a HICAP aircraft onto a live runway without TCAS activated, my headset on and my radio audible. But hey, that's just me, I guess if you want to judge me as being holier than though because I would follow SOP's and the regulations, even if they are perceived as an inconvenience, then so be it, label me.
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I'm just going to throw this is the mix too, as additional to all the other factors mentioned, it's primarily about AIRMANSHIP... and how you manage & prioritise all those things trying to 
you right up the jacksie.
Remember, you - the crew are the last piece of cheese in what is now an extremely hollow bit of Swiss'!
you right up the jacksie. Remember, you - the crew are the last piece of cheese in what is now an extremely hollow bit of Swiss'!
Last edited by Chocks Away; 15th Jul 2014 at 07:22.
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Who has not at some point in their career been on finals at a CTAF field to find some joker taxiing for takeoff in the opposite direction to existing traffic?
Remote non-towered airfield. Wind 5-10kts straight along the runway. On final, having flown standard overhead join via mid-field crosswind. Usual calls made.
Crop duster joins 0.5nm final from opposite direction, lands straight towards us. Turns on grass runway, stops. (We go around, remain in circuit watching with interest.)
His loader / truck driver drives up to him, loads him up. He departs on duty runway. No calls made.
Driver stays on runway. No-one can land, obviously.
Two mins later, exactly same scenario. No calls made.
Driver departs runway with his truck.
We land, park.
Half an hour later, he returns again. No markings on white-tail aeroplane, no registration visible from about 200m away.
(Aftermath - I filed a report with all details. No action taken. I have never again bothered to file a report for someone else's safety errors.)
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And where is CASA??
Not monitoring CTAF and LISTENING properly to other transmissions from pilots already in the pattern amounts to a loss of SA.
Wakey wakey CASA, might be time you started paying attention to what operators are doing out there
