ANZ Erebus crash 28 November 1979 - 34 years later.
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Paragraph 377 of the Mahon Report sums up this accident succinctly;
"The palpably false sections of evidence which I heard could not have been the result of mistake, or faulty recollection. They originated, I am compelled to say, in a pre-determined plan of deception. They were very clearly part of an attempt to conceal a series of disastrous administrative blunders and so& I am forced reluctantly to say that I had to listen to an orchestrated litany of lies." (Paragraph 377)
"The palpably false sections of evidence which I heard could not have been the result of mistake, or faulty recollection. They originated, I am compelled to say, in a pre-determined plan of deception. They were very clearly part of an attempt to conceal a series of disastrous administrative blunders and so& I am forced reluctantly to say that I had to listen to an orchestrated litany of lies." (Paragraph 377)
The facts of the crash are clear and not in dispute.
Let me ask you, Paragraph 377. Had Collins not been so low for so long, heeded the flight engineer and pulled up sooner, and missed the mountain by say 100 ft. Would he have been thanked by Air NZ and congratulated by the CAA? Feted by NZALPA, a safety award introduced in his name? Members of the public flocking to fly with him?
From what you write in your public profile, I surmise you were a B747/B777 captain, with Air NZ. Is that correct? You must have been in your mid-twenties when Collins flew into Erebus. So, did you spend virtually your whole career under the shadow of Erebus, where you are today, or are you just revisiting?
Last edited by Ornis; 2nd May 2014 at 13:37.
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Brian, please read what was written, of course many people are aware of whiteout, the point I made was that nobody had defined any such thing as sector whiteout, once again I quote from John King's publication.
How many trips did Gordon Vette do to McMurdo?, and yet he discovered a phenomenon that people with many years experience in that environment had never encountered?
This ground has been covered before in these threads but is still very relevant. The statements by Captain Derek Ellis in a letter to NZALPA.
You will no doubt be aware of the qualifications and experience held by Captain Derek Ellis
How many trips did Gordon Vette do to McMurdo?, and yet he discovered a phenomenon that people with many years experience in that environment had never encountered?
This ground has been covered before in these threads but is still very relevant. The statements by Captain Derek Ellis in a letter to NZALPA.
You will no doubt be aware of the qualifications and experience held by Captain Derek Ellis
On the other hand, if flying flying in desert areas of a similar topography as the My. Erebus area, I think I would stay above my MSA unless it was very obvious that the weather was nice. I have no real experience in desert areas.
There are all kinds of light aircraft that have crashed under similar circumstances. The accidents reports invariably put the blame on the PIC. This just happened to be a bigger aircraft.
Of course there are other issues to be considered, but having incorrect coordinates just shows how you cant trust anyone. If you are going to break some rules, you better make 1000% sure that you can get away with it. Flying into milky white or conditions without it being one of those nice clear days over the mountains increases risk if below a safe altitude.
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From what you write in your public profile, I surmise you were a B747/B777 captain, with Air NZ. Is that correct? You must have been in your mid-twenties when Collins flew into Erebus. So, did you spend virtually your whole career under the shadow of Erebus, where you are today, or are you just revisiting?
Kia Ora
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You really are pathetic, you post
After posting
It would certainly be nice to be a young Caravan pilot again, but as I was, and had been flying for some years prior to the Erebus event it is not possible. If you are an example of
[/QUOTE] then I am quite happy to not be one.
One shouldn't surmise, and it's interesting to see how you are trying to covertly work out my age, rank and serial number
Regardless of your Pprune status, it is likely you are a young pilot experienced in flying Caravans or hot air balloons whose only experience with whiteout is what you have read on the internet? Surely you are not an experienced, competent, reasonable and experienced widebody Captain?
Surely you are not an experienced, competent, reasonable and experienced widebody Captain?
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It would certainly be nice to be a young Caravan pilot again, but as I was, and had been flying for some years prior to the Erebus event it is not possible.
Cheers old chap
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Paragraph377: One shouldn't surmise, and it's interesting to see how you are trying to covertly work out my age, rank and serial number by your line of questions.
About Paragraph377
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only): ATPL
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only): 747, 777
Biography: Professional Pilot. Location: New Zealand. Interests: Aviation. Occupation: Retired
Date of Birth: November 8, 1952 (61)
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Biography: Professional Pilot. Location: New Zealand. Interests: Aviation. Occupation: Retired
Date of Birth: November 8, 1952 (61)
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Paragraph377. When can I expect an answer to my earlier question?
Had Collins not been so low for so long, heeded the flight engineer and pulled up sooner, and missed the mountain by say 100 ft. Would he have been thanked by Air NZ and congratulated by the CAA? Feted by NZALPA, a safety award introduced in his name? Members of the public flocking to fly with him?
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Paragraph377. When can I expect an answer to my earlier question?
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Paragraph377. You will be waiting a long time. You think you can pose questions to me and that I am somehow obliged to respond to you with an answer? I really don't know who the hell you think you are but I choose who I wish to discuss matters or answer questions too, not the other way around.
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Motivated reasoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remind you that you started this thread on TE901. You can't complain if your assertions and arguments are challenged. Either you answer or you concede.
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Would have thought it would be pretty hard to maintain currency on two widebody a/c types after retirement.
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Don't get too carried away Hempy. Like me, he has obviously listed what he once did, unlike yourself which is totally void of info, other than you are in Oz.
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para 377,
When you make statements such as
The question of Ron Chippindales qualifications and experience obviously have to printed once again to counter such scurrilous utterings.
From John King's New Zealand Tragedies, Aviation.
When you make statements such as
a) The Investigator actually had the skills to conduct such an investigation (which he didn't) and;
b) The Investigator was not a government footstool who was always going to ensure his investigation report blamed the crew otherwise his employer (the government) would be held liable and accountable and have to cough up a settlement amount to the deceased relatives, which at the time would have sent NZ broke.
b) The Investigator was not a government footstool who was always going to ensure his investigation report blamed the crew otherwise his employer (the government) would be held liable and accountable and have to cough up a settlement amount to the deceased relatives, which at the time would have sent NZ broke.
From John King's New Zealand Tragedies, Aviation.
The commissioner's assessment of his first witness ignored Chippindales considerable experience as a flight instructor and transport pilot in the RNZAF. He had been formally involved in military flight safety and accident investigation for several years before being seconded to similar duties in civil aviation, and his standing in the world community is such that as someone scrupulously fair and independent, he has been asked to help investigate some accidents of a particularly delicate political nature. (Recently, for instance, he was appointed to the five strong United Nations team to investigate the loss of the Korean Airlines Boeing 747 airliner, FlighKAL007, shot down by a soviet fighter near the Island of Sakhalin in 1983)
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Don't get too carried away Hempy. Like me, he has obviously listed what he once did, unlike yourself which is totally void of info, other than you are in Oz.
Interested in buying a bridge??
Air New Zealand cocked it up.
Collins cocked it up.
Then a lot of people began behaving poorly.
That's it boys and girls........they both cocked it up. Neither party comes out of it looking good and it's that simple.
For anyone to argue that Collins didn't cock it up is ludicrous . Even supposing the minimum heights weren't 16,000ft for IMC and 6000ft VMC..........when was it ever a good idea to be at 1500ft doing 260kts clean in a transport jet full of pax ? Anyone ?.......Para377?...... If they were over a flat brown desert with a perfectly defined horizon to a bright blue sky it still would be a bad decision to do 260kts , 1500ft, clean and full of pax.....but they weren't, it was worse than that.
One of the lowest blows in this saga IMO was Holmes's denigration of Chipendales character 12 months after he died. It was just so gutless.
Anyway, back to it chaps.
Collins cocked it up.
Then a lot of people began behaving poorly.
That's it boys and girls........they both cocked it up. Neither party comes out of it looking good and it's that simple.
For anyone to argue that Collins didn't cock it up is ludicrous . Even supposing the minimum heights weren't 16,000ft for IMC and 6000ft VMC..........when was it ever a good idea to be at 1500ft doing 260kts clean in a transport jet full of pax ? Anyone ?.......Para377?...... If they were over a flat brown desert with a perfectly defined horizon to a bright blue sky it still would be a bad decision to do 260kts , 1500ft, clean and full of pax.....but they weren't, it was worse than that.
One of the lowest blows in this saga IMO was Holmes's denigration of Chipendales character 12 months after he died. It was just so gutless.
Anyway, back to it chaps.
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Interested in buying a bridge??
Air New Zealand cocked it up.
Collins cocked it up.
Then a lot of people began behaving poorly.
Collins cocked it up.
Then a lot of people began behaving poorly.
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You still have not got it.
To even descend that far they had to have been identified by radar, had VHF contact, and have a DME lockon, they had none of these things. And who was it that made the decision to descend?
They also had company memorandum that covered requirements for descent OAA:14/13/28 dated 8th November 1979.
Given all those facts I would have thought anybody or perhaps I should say any reasonable person, would accept the Company and CAA had done their bit to ensure a safe operation.
though even 6,000 VMC was a fools paradise
They also had company memorandum that covered requirements for descent OAA:14/13/28 dated 8th November 1979.
Delete all references in briefing dated 23/10/79. Note that the only let down procedure available is VMC below FL160 (16,000ft) to 6,000ft as follows:
1. Vis 20km plus
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid Mt Erebus area by operating in an arc from 120 grid through 360 grid to 270 grid from McMurdo field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4.Descent to be coordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in the area.
1. Vis 20km plus
2. No snow shower in area.
3. Avoid Mt Erebus area by operating in an arc from 120 grid through 360 grid to 270 grid from McMurdo field, within 20 nm of TACAN CH29.
4.Descent to be coordinated with local radar control as they may have other traffic in the area.
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I'm afraid you still don't get it prospector, the traps that lay with whiteout.
They had nothing of the sort.
Given all those facts I would have thought anybody or perhaps I should say any reasonable person, would accept the Company and CAA had done their bit to ensure a safe operation.
