What I can see Keg, is that all of the FOs at QF that you have quoted (join date 1995 - 2000) would have had an opportunity to be Captains at QF had they chosen to do so - given there are currently QF Captains with seniority dates in 2000.
The conditions associated with the MOU transfer changed.
Until recently pilots were responsible for the cost of the endorsement.
When LS agreed to cover the cost of the endorsement the transfer was made more attractive to those considering the move over.
Jetstar is not an isolated case. Mainline crew are critical of the mananagement or lack there of of both mainline & Jetstar. Guys "bag" both mainline & Jetstar and will take the first command opportunity that happens at either.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 12th Aug 2012 at 00:27.
Mainline crew are critical of the mananagement or lack there of of both mainline & Jetstar. Guys "bag" both mainline & Jetstar and will take the first command opportunity that happens at either.
Smoke and mirrors! We all know that the reason is that the operation itself is seen as second class in the eyes of the skygods, however as Jetbest has pointed out many are finding out that this is not the case!
Do you ever feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking comp Keg?
Your assertions are incorrect, your rhetoric is mind boggling, and your attitude optimises another reason why so many who have come across are enjoying their JQ experience.
The facts of the matter are quite simple. 4 yeas ago when positions were available, the pick up rate of MoU positions was minimal. Every QF FO from 2004-2008 had the opportunity to access the Q numbers as they became available and they were advertised. Dont cry to me that people are only taking the posiotns they have missed out on during the last 5 years. They had their chance and they have had it again. People just want their cake and eat it too.
No-one is playing silly buggers with the Q numbers. The interpretation is being presented for consideration. These numbers are only protected in the realm of the MoU and a lot of people forget the MoU is meant to operate both ways yet I have not seen any positions advertised to JQ pilots.
I'm looking forward to 160 JQ pilots moving to QF. I'm also looking forward to mainline prospering in the future and for Q number to move back to Qantas.
Unseen, I put it to you that it is people like Keg who are trying the play with the MoU to suit themselves, not the JQ FO's. But I may be wrong even though those who orchestrated the MoU believe it to be correct. If so I will gladly eat humble pie rather than blowing a fuse.
Are you forgetting the really obvious reason hundreds of Qantas pilots have left for Jetstar MOU, Jetstar direct entry, Qatar, Emirates, Air Japan, Skymark, University...
Assertions? Rhetoric? NOTAM posts a sob story highlighting the desperate and unfortunate plight of someone who has been in JQ since 2007-2008 and begging for 'unity' because of that horrible and distasteful situation. I happen to point out that if he (or she) is interested in sob stories along the lines of what he's suggested that there are a plethora of QF crew, employed well before the time frame that NOTAM talks about who have their own sob story. That gets pointed out and the response is 'let's not re-hash the past, what has happened has happened'. It's laughable in the extreme.
On a number of occasions I've advocated for J* crew (and Impulse crew before them). I've emailed COM members, lobbied COM members (right up to various Presidents) and so on to ensure that people in this industry and in the QF group are protected. I advocated for a better deal for the J* widebody variation too- as did many QF crew who could see what was occurring. So spare me the lecture that a bloke who was still in early years of high school when QF drivers AND JQ drivers signed an agreement that people could transfer between the entities at certain seniority numbers, isn't going to be a Captain at JQ by the age of 28 simply because of that agreement.
I've got no beef against J* pilots in any general sense (apart for those individuals that attempt to short circuit an agreement). I hope they have long and successful careers without some of the grief that QF drivers are currently going through. The terms and conditions are what they are.
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These numbers are only protected in the realm of the MoU and a lot of people forget the MoU is meant to operate both ways yet I have not seen any positions advertised to JQ pilots.
Not for the first time I'll ask the JQ crew, have you asked for them to be advertised? Have you complained that they haven't been promulgated to you guys? Every year since 2004 (ish) QF drivers have asked why the JQ slots weren't advertised to us (on those occasions when they weren't). Every year we've asked why it is that QF drivers weren't being released for JQ slots. You can hardly blame QF crew for not advertising QF promotional slots to JQ. Your gripe in this particular circumstance is with your own management rather than QF drivers. Then again though, much easier to criticise QF drivers than your own management isn't it. A trait that seems all too common from many JQ loud mouths on PPRuNe it seems.
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I'm looking forward to 160 JQ pilots moving to QF.
Likewise. I'll welcome you guys with open arms. I'll even explain to post 2004 QF drivers why it's appropriate and right that you do take those slots ahead of them.... it's because they're JQ protected slots.
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I'm also looking forward to mainline prospering in the future and for Q number to move back to Qantas.
As you should. If QF is prospering and those QF crew who have taken up JQ seniority numbers come back to QF then I presume those ghost numbers now disappear forever from the JQ seniority list. They have essentially been retired by QF crew coming back. You may face the prospect if mainline picks up of having significant promotional slots available. I wonder if the JPC will again recommend a 3 year darwin base freeze if that becomes the case. Probably not would be my guess.
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I put it to you that it is people like Keg who are trying the play with the MoU to suit themselves, not the JQ FO's.
How do you figure that? The way it's going, there won't even be an MOU slot for me in the next couple of years (unless I choose to jump now) and then were I to go to J* it will be on the bottom of the pile. Further, please provide 'evidence' of how I'm trying to 'play with the MoU to suit themselves'. It's a pretty nasty assertion to make if you're not going to back it up with any evidence.
I guess though when people play the man instead of the principle it shows how little they have to go on were it simply an argument about principle.
There have been 2 QF MOU Pilots in the last month who failed there command upgrades.They have both returned to QF. I believe where given 3 goes and other options but chose to return to QF
What happened to these numbers on the seniority list if these guys went back to QF? Did they get deleted or left as a Q number?
Unseen, you are incorrect. Only 24 out of 25 Darwin base freeze positions were applied for. Hence the argument about the deletion of 37 Q numbers as all have had a chance to apply for those positions.
There is also an argument within the MoU that as a mainline pilot you are only allowed to apply for a position once. Whether you take it or decline is irrelevant as you have exercised your rights under the agreement and any further bidding is now null and void. There may have been some allocations which did not follow this rule and thus should be rescinded.
Whats the point in rehashing the past? Yes, some guys are complaining about an agreement affecting their promotions. I agree whole heartedly that the agreement as it stands IS the agreement plain and simple.
I am not an advocate of the MoU, but it was in play when I joined and I accept its contents. If someone feels the agreement is not within their best interests, that is how they feel. To belittle their opinion, and follow it up with some soft story about how things were, and waiting 15-20 years.... now that is laughable.
Franky, JQ and QF people who are stubborn enough not to roll with the times, and hard headed enough to resist change are masochistic and self-depreciating. Everyone makes their own choices. Don't tickle my funny bone with the old mantra "but we were here first" as its being slung from both sides. Maybe a stiff shot of darwinism is in order.
In saying that both sides need to abide by its contents and work within the realms of its contents.
By that I mean:
1. a 3 year base freeze, is in the realm of the agreement. 2. Deleting 37 Q numbers is within the realm of the agreement. 3. Working together is in the realm of the agreement and quite frankly the POINT. 4. Promoting/reassigning 98 QF Captains and FO's to JQ commands is in the realm of the agreement.
MOU 8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;
Only 24 Qantas pilots exercised that opportunity out of the 25 position offered. This is the first time that both Qantas and Jetstar pilots have been allocated commands in the same FSO. It is because everyone senior to the last JQ allocation has had an opportunity to bid for a command and the conditions of the MOU were met, the Q numbers should be deleted.
MOU 8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;
Only 24 Qantas pilots exercised that opportunity out of the 25 position offered. This is the first time that both Qantas and Jetstar pilots have been allocated commands in the same FSO. It is because everyone senior to the last JQ allocation has had an opportunity to bid for a command and the conditions of the MOU were met, the Q numbers should be deleted.
sorry.. it should be 37 Q numbers.
Ok, so you are saying that 1 position not bid for means 37 numbers deleted?
Is this what you are saying - in the last allocation, there were 37 ghost Q numbers on the JQ list senior to someone in JQ who was allocated a Command?
Ie something like - there were 61 Q ghost slots but only 24 were taken so you delete the 37 remaining?
Where, in the MOU, does it state that Mainline pilots are limited to Darwin bases only?
So having copped that on the chin, even though enough mainline pilots have bid for the slots, several were knocked out on technicalities. A few because they were short of hours, even though they would be well in excess of hours when they started their course. A couple because JQ doesn't recognise their several thousand hours of 146 time. So that last JQ slot you are referring to was well over subscribed, just not allocated to QF for various bull$hit reasons. And that justifies erasing 37 QF numbers.
Then to top it all of you want to preach about 4 year FOs? About unity?
No ethics. No morals. You are the reason this industry is fcuked.
If someone feels the agreement is not within their best interests, that is how they feel. To belittle their opinion, and follow it up with some soft story about how things were, and waiting 15-20 years.... now that is laughable.
Thank you Bula, this is the point that Keg amongst his/her ranting and raving seems to be missing
Notam - can you answer my questions / confirm my understanding of the present situation as you guys see it please?
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I think I get it now,
Is this what you are saying - in the last allocation, there were 37 ghost Q numbers on the JQ list senior to someone in JQ who was allocated a Command?
Ie something like - there were 61 Q ghost slots but only 24 were taken so you delete the 37 remaining?
Qantas pilots at least have options within the group unlike some group pilots who were shown the door with nothing when their airline was judged as no longer useful , Qantas to some extent has had the same judgment made on it . It's a tough world !
