Righto...so whats wrong with Richmond for 2nd airport.
Read the Mrdak Joint Study Report
Have a good solid read of the Mrdak Joint Study Report (over 3000 pages if you have the time...). It is thorough and makes many good points. You can argue about the exact time scales for growth, but it is clear that the problems which are forshadowed will occur and that the decsion needs to be made NOW.
Short answers
A decent sized site is need for a multi runway international airport with appropriate ground trasnport facilities etc. The YSRI site is too small and as said above is a flood plain.
The ignore sydney approach won't work; there will always be many flights routed through YSSY and when the system gets overloaded then the delays will cascade australia wide. this will just get worse.
BOF is a quarter- wit who has no vision except for trying to save a few votes. I doubt he can read that much material, or even if he does, has no capacity to understand it!
Badgery's Creek looks like the best option to me because the land is set aside... Mrdak says as much...
SB
Short answers
A decent sized site is need for a multi runway international airport with appropriate ground trasnport facilities etc. The YSRI site is too small and as said above is a flood plain.
The ignore sydney approach won't work; there will always be many flights routed through YSSY and when the system gets overloaded then the delays will cascade australia wide. this will just get worse.
BOF is a quarter- wit who has no vision except for trying to save a few votes. I doubt he can read that much material, or even if he does, has no capacity to understand it!
Badgery's Creek looks like the best option to me because the land is set aside... Mrdak says as much...
SB
Last edited by Seabreeze; 14th Apr 2012 at 02:03. Reason: can't spell
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In my personal opinion i dont see the need for a 2nd airport. They should get rid of the 11pm-6am curfew and spend the money on building new roads like the F6, improving public transport and improving roads.
Even if Sydney airport gets that congested surely they could raise landing fee's on narrow body aircraft to try and encourage airline's to use widebody aircraft.
Even if Sydney airport gets that congested surely they could raise landing fee's on narrow body aircraft to try and encourage airline's to use widebody aircraft.
Spend what money on other infrastructure? A new Sydney airport won't cost the Government anything. The Government can sell the right to build a new Sydney airport. It makes the Government money (which can then be spent upgrading surrounding transport infrastructure).
Where are you going to park all these extra widebodies at YSSY? They're already struggling to fit them all in.
Big engineering progects in recent years.
The Laerdal tunnel, Sunda straights bridge in indonesia, the Chunnel, even the Greeks have bult one of the worlds largest bridges. The Millau Viaduct in France.
What have we built here in oz since the the Snowy River Hydro scheme in the 50's.
We cant even do something simple like blocking off a flood plain.
Australia is going backwards at an ever increasing speed.
The Laerdal tunnel, Sunda straights bridge in indonesia, the Chunnel, even the Greeks have bult one of the worlds largest bridges. The Millau Viaduct in France.
What have we built here in oz since the the Snowy River Hydro scheme in the 50's.
We cant even do something simple like blocking off a flood plain.
Australia is going backwards at an ever increasing speed.
India...A Team on ATC
But I agree, Australian airports are a bloody disgrace. There are so-called third world countries that have airports far better than ours.
Unfortunately, this country suffers from an acute lack of vision. Our infrastructure is rapidly falling apart and there is precious little political will to do anything about it. I love this country, but there are times when I'm embarrassed to call myself Australian.
ButFli, I often operate a midnight horror widebody flight (not QF) to Asia out of MEL and it is usually chockers. I think the demand is there.
Yes Buzz, they were bloody good. Indian ATC is a shambles most other times though.
Ozgrade, I fully agree. Australia: preoccupied with supporting three levels of government for a relatively small population and other important matters such as gay marriage, multiculturalism and the 'climate change' scam.
Yes Buzz, they were bloody good. Indian ATC is a shambles most other times though.
Ozgrade, I fully agree. Australia: preoccupied with supporting three levels of government for a relatively small population and other important matters such as gay marriage, multiculturalism and the 'climate change' scam.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 14th Apr 2012 at 06:35.
Option 1.
I'm sure the current and future generations of aircraft are whisper jets compared to the old 707s and 747s of yesteryear. The airport at Mascot has been around a hell of a lot longer than the good rate paying citizens of surrounding areas - time they harden up and realize why their house was probably cheaper than others not near the airport.
Option 2.
Leave the cap on movements as is, but move regional and light aircraft traffic to Bankstown with underground rail connection to SYD Domestic and International.
I'm sure the current and future generations of aircraft are whisper jets compared to the old 707s and 747s of yesteryear. The airport at Mascot has been around a hell of a lot longer than the good rate paying citizens of surrounding areas - time they harden up and realize why their house was probably cheaper than others not near the airport.
Option 2.
Leave the cap on movements as is, but move regional and light aircraft traffic to Bankstown with underground rail connection to SYD Domestic and International.
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FORGET "SYDNEY'S SECOND AIRPORT" - go regional, boot the RAAF out of Willy'.
No curfew, cheaper "taxes" etc would put KSA on the spot re their exorbitant charges and the polies would not have to go cap in hand to Macquarie Airports for their "approval".
Role on....
No curfew, cheaper "taxes" etc would put KSA on the spot re their exorbitant charges and the polies would not have to go cap in hand to Macquarie Airports for their "approval".
Role on....
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why not Holsworthy? extend the current runway obviously, its far enough from residential areas for noise to be no consideration, not only that, no one complains of the weapon fire noise around here, rail link is very close, just extend off Glenfield station, new Freight depot is planned for Moorebank, the M7 and M5 very close, and the airspace is already restricted, so can easily be changed to class C without disrupting existing airspace, and all flight paths will arrive and depart to the south, over virgin bushland.
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A standard heavy rail line from Epping to Rouse Hill is looking like the best part of $10billion.
How much would a high speed rail line to Canberra or Williamtown cost? Compulsory acquisition of how many Sydney properties at the best part or $600k per 500m2 block? Running along the Great dividing range? Crossing the Hawkesbury River and going under / above the hills and valleys from there up to Wyong? How much would it cost to maintain that distance of high speed line? What sort of subsidy would be required to cover the costs of 200km (to Willy) or 300km (to Canberra) high speed journeys?
Next bit - move the ADF out (RAAF out of Richmond or Willy, Army out of Holsworthy, RAN out of Sydney for the benefit of cruise ships). To where? How is it that every member of the ADF apparently will be happy to live in Tindal or Weipa or Cultana or some other Godforsaken outback dump? Care to explain how recruitment and retention will be addressed? Care to explain how FLTLTs and CAPTs and SGTs and the like will be replaced when they get the choice of losing their marriage or leaving the ADF?
The Auditor General identified an average per member additional cost of $15k p.a. to maintain 1 BDE in Darwin. Watch retention when Op SLIPPER ends and there are no trips and medals any more .... 1 & 3 BDE will bleed. The Army has to work hard to post people out of 7 BDE in large part because they'd prefer to live in Brisvegas than Darwin or Townsville. Why is 7 RAR now at RAAF Edinburgh instead of Robbo?
How much does it cost to train RAAF aircrew? If the only posting locations are Curtin / Scherger / Learmonth / Tindal consider how much more it will cost to recruit and train.
The Gummint already owns Badgery's Creek. All it takes is is an ounce of political gumption. It's the right answer. Everyone knows it is.
How much would a high speed rail line to Canberra or Williamtown cost? Compulsory acquisition of how many Sydney properties at the best part or $600k per 500m2 block? Running along the Great dividing range? Crossing the Hawkesbury River and going under / above the hills and valleys from there up to Wyong? How much would it cost to maintain that distance of high speed line? What sort of subsidy would be required to cover the costs of 200km (to Willy) or 300km (to Canberra) high speed journeys?
Next bit - move the ADF out (RAAF out of Richmond or Willy, Army out of Holsworthy, RAN out of Sydney for the benefit of cruise ships). To where? How is it that every member of the ADF apparently will be happy to live in Tindal or Weipa or Cultana or some other Godforsaken outback dump? Care to explain how recruitment and retention will be addressed? Care to explain how FLTLTs and CAPTs and SGTs and the like will be replaced when they get the choice of losing their marriage or leaving the ADF?
The Auditor General identified an average per member additional cost of $15k p.a. to maintain 1 BDE in Darwin. Watch retention when Op SLIPPER ends and there are no trips and medals any more .... 1 & 3 BDE will bleed. The Army has to work hard to post people out of 7 BDE in large part because they'd prefer to live in Brisvegas than Darwin or Townsville. Why is 7 RAR now at RAAF Edinburgh instead of Robbo?
How much does it cost to train RAAF aircrew? If the only posting locations are Curtin / Scherger / Learmonth / Tindal consider how much more it will cost to recruit and train.
The Gummint already owns Badgery's Creek. All it takes is is an ounce of political gumption. It's the right answer. Everyone knows it is.
LikeThis - its not just the cost of shipping the ADF members off and then having to train a bunch of people because everyone else has left with their corporate knowledge..
e.g. for Willytown there are 6x Flying Squadrons, A few different HQ's, ATC, GCI, and a truck load of support people.
If you kick them out all of that basing and support infrastructure needs to be rebuilt somewhere, the people need to be relocated along with housing and the money to achieve this isn't coming out of thin air...
Because successive Govts have been so inept for 25years it starts looking like an attractive option - until you realise that the govt just needs to do their job and Govern, rather than carrying on like 15 year olds in Parliament trying to get cheap shots in...
e.g. for Willytown there are 6x Flying Squadrons, A few different HQ's, ATC, GCI, and a truck load of support people.
If you kick them out all of that basing and support infrastructure needs to be rebuilt somewhere, the people need to be relocated along with housing and the money to achieve this isn't coming out of thin air...
Because successive Govts have been so inept for 25years it starts looking like an attractive option - until you realise that the govt just needs to do their job and Govern, rather than carrying on like 15 year olds in Parliament trying to get cheap shots in...
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Boot the RAAF out
Alien Role, I joined the RAAF in 1958 and even then there was talk of moving RAAF Richmond to Narromine. I guess the RAAF have pretty good roots in the Hawkesbury as they are still there and no doubt still will be after I have slipped off this planet. Willy will be the same, and of course, it is a case of who injects most into the local economy at both Richmond and Williamtown? Lift the curfew in Sydney and remind the natives that KSF has been there much longer than many of the residential areas which surround it.
Why would the RAAF need to vacate YWLM?
Build a parallel rwy and big new civil terminal to the south. Military can keep the northern side with access to training areas etc.
Freeway onto the F3 and railway connection to existing at Hexham would better serve anybody north of mid central coast. The area would boom and become a satellite for Sydney.
Build a parallel rwy and big new civil terminal to the south. Military can keep the northern side with access to training areas etc.
Freeway onto the F3 and railway connection to existing at Hexham would better serve anybody north of mid central coast. The area would boom and become a satellite for Sydney.
If you are going to put in a new runway, Freeway extension and Rail line why not then just build a new airport at Sydney where the demand actually exists?
Civilian Access to RAAF Airfields
Summary – Major Capital City and Secondary Airports
50. There is no case for RPT operations from Air Force airfields where an adjacent Major Capital city Airport is available as these aerodromes have adequate capacity well into the future. The caveat, with respect to the Sydney Region Capacity Study being the exception. In seeking to operate a civil airport at AMB, EDN, PEA, or RIC, a prospective operator would be basing their proposal on commercial rather than operational considerations. Additionally, the WLM experience provides sufficient warning that civil aviation access can have unintended consequences for Air Force, including increased costs, capability loss or skewing of personnel requirements, (both ATS and ARFFS), and ultimately reduced military access to the airfield, with attendant significant, and possibly irretrievable capability loss.
51. If significant general aviation activity was to be approved at Air Force airfields, reversing the decision would be difficult. Further, it would be difficult to be selective when agreeing to a request from a commercial organisation to use an Air Force airfield as it would no doubt be followed quickly by others requests seeking similar access.
Any initiative aimed at introducing Heavy category RPT aircraft will require increased wake turbulence separation distances, thereby reducing arrival and departure traffic rates, which will serve to disrupt both military and civil movements. WLM terminal airspace is designed for fighter operations, and is not adequate for either increased levels of Medium category aircraft activity or the introduction of Heavy category RPT activity. Major exercise activity also creates significant increased traffic flows adding to congestion. The impact of heavy aircraft activity on required ARFFS category may place further unfunded pressure of Defence resources. A review of the current Operating Agreement, to allow access by Heavy category civil aircraft to WLM, is inadvisable and the WLM/NAL lease should be amended to exclude Heavy category civil operations. A summary of WLM traffic capacity issues is at annex B
Civilian Access to RAAF Airfields
Summary – Major Capital City and Secondary Airports
50. There is no case for RPT operations from Air Force airfields where an adjacent Major Capital city Airport is available as these aerodromes have adequate capacity well into the future. The caveat, with respect to the Sydney Region Capacity Study being the exception. In seeking to operate a civil airport at AMB, EDN, PEA, or RIC, a prospective operator would be basing their proposal on commercial rather than operational considerations. Additionally, the WLM experience provides sufficient warning that civil aviation access can have unintended consequences for Air Force, including increased costs, capability loss or skewing of personnel requirements, (both ATS and ARFFS), and ultimately reduced military access to the airfield, with attendant significant, and possibly irretrievable capability loss.
51. If significant general aviation activity was to be approved at Air Force airfields, reversing the decision would be difficult. Further, it would be difficult to be selective when agreeing to a request from a commercial organisation to use an Air Force airfield as it would no doubt be followed quickly by others requests seeking similar access.
Any initiative aimed at introducing Heavy category RPT aircraft will require increased wake turbulence separation distances, thereby reducing arrival and departure traffic rates, which will serve to disrupt both military and civil movements. WLM terminal airspace is designed for fighter operations, and is not adequate for either increased levels of Medium category aircraft activity or the introduction of Heavy category RPT activity. Major exercise activity also creates significant increased traffic flows adding to congestion. The impact of heavy aircraft activity on required ARFFS category may place further unfunded pressure of Defence resources. A review of the current Operating Agreement, to allow access by Heavy category civil aircraft to WLM, is inadvisable and the WLM/NAL lease should be amended to exclude Heavy category civil operations. A summary of WLM traffic capacity issues is at annex B
Let me guess, the military wrote a report recommending that they do not share "their" airports with mere civvies?
Perhaps an "independent" report is needed.
Yes minister? A report minister? Well here is the conclusion we will have a consultant write the other 1000 pages to support our conclusion.
Yawn.
Perhaps an "independent" report is needed.
Yes minister? A report minister? Well here is the conclusion we will have a consultant write the other 1000 pages to support our conclusion.
Yawn.
Maybe my sarcasm meeter isn't sensitive enough but an independent report has been written. It can be found here and it highlights the issues that have been talked about already in this and other threads... 
Please do keep up.
So now thats the RAAF and the Independent steering committee report reccomending that Williamtown not become Sydneys second airport.
Please do keep up.
Newcastle Airport at RAAF Base Williamtown is too far from the Sydney market to serve as Sydney’s second passenger airport. It is an important airport for the Hunter and Central Coast regions but its capacity to grow in the future needs to be settled, having principal regard to RAAF’s requirements for the site as its primary fighter base.
The Badgerys Creek site, which was acquired by the Commonwealth between 1986 and 1991 for a future airport, remains the best site for an additional major RPT airport.
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Willy is becoming a large airport by stealth anyway, as the North West of Sydney, the ever increasing Central Coast, and of course the growing Newcastle/Hunter region demand better airservices. It has been shown that many of the residents of these areas would prefer to drive the F3 than face Sydney and the almost promised traffic gridlock anyway if flying domestic, not to mention the cheap parking fees that NTL offers. Over the next ten years NTL airport is really going to become a big airport, call it regional, call it what you like, but that area of the coast is growing big time, and it has to be serviced one way or another. Great flying WX 99% of the time also.