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Old 28th Nov 2011, 06:21   #101 (permalink)
 
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This has allowed them to be highly productive, highly paid & with high profitability. If I recall correctly, they work less hours on average and have more holidays compared to rest of Europe.
Sorry Breakfast......simply not true. I spend half of my time over there and if it is correct that germans sit around a table and walk out with a compromise, it is also true that work relationships have deteriorated a lot in the last year.

German TV has come up with numerous reports about the rise of burn out cases at work.
10 years ago, Gerhart Schröder, the then Chnacelor, came out with a plan that was supposed to make Germany poor competitiveness the star of Europe.
This was mainly achieved by an iron fisted control over salaries and benefits in order to spare employers.
It didn't go without casualties and the famous law HARTZ 4, bearing the name of the poor functionary who wrote them, sent a lot of unproductive people packing and the lucky one's on temp work.
You have to admire the Germans, for they bit the bullet for 10 years rising to where they are today. Which explains why no Greek is going to bust their nuts calling them NAZI 's which they do just because the germans do not want to cough up free money to they can go on doing...eeeeeeeeh....no one knows exactly.......but it costs a lot !!!!!
German Air Traffic controlers just had a bitter dispute with their employer and threats of strike where ruled illegal a couple of times. The mere threat created chaos. One thing the germans hate.....is uncertainty.
They finally reached an agreement and with very minimum disruption to the travelling public.
The same thing in Spain finished with the minister of Justice prosecuting them immediatly after 3 days of total Armagedon. For what ?? a big fat ZILCH !

So, you're right. The kind of stunt Alan Joyce is putting up would never ever take place in Germany..........but all isn't rosy. Still, great place !

They do not have more holliday than the rest of Europe, they very much average what the french have but when a german is at work.......HE IS !
No Friday lunch that last well into the afternoon and quiet convieniently .....'bridge with the week end.......'if you get my drift !

One more thing......no Lufthansa pilot would deem to walk around with a silly red tie making useless PA adress and would not take his grievance to the public. I tell you, wen zey are at woerk.....zey arrrrre !
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 08:22   #102 (permalink)
 
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Me Myself, thanks for the on the ground update, I will defer to your "local" knowledge.

I was basing my information on articles such as Europe:More Holidays and More Productive?. That article was written in 2009, and you specifically mention that thinks have deteriorated over the last year.

The Germans work hard, and are productive. They have had a huge financial burden to integrate East Germany into their economy. There is a good article of the German Model of industry on wikipedia HERE. I'm not saying it is all roses, but there appears to be some merit in the way they do business.

My post was incorrect in comparing there holidays to the rest of Europe, it should have been compared to the US. If I provided incorrect information I was wrong and stand corrected.

It still does not change the fact that there are many wasy of resolving disputes, and grounding the airline is the least likely to lead to workers improving productivity of their own volition.

I also think recent history proves that if the pilots had gone straight to industrial action in the form of ANY operations disruptions (as many argued they should), Qantas would have shut down the airline immediately - it would have provided exactly the excuse they were looking for to pull out, and use the nuclear option. They were always going to do it, goading the employees to cause the disruption first.
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Old 28th Nov 2011, 09:13   #103 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by breakfastburrito
I also think recent history proves that if the pilots had gone straight to industrial action in the form of ANY operations disruptions (as many argued they should), Qantas would have shut down the airline immediately - it would have provided exactly the excuse they were looking for to pull out, and use the nuclear option. They were always going to do it, goading the employees to cause the disruption first.
QFT




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Old 28th Nov 2011, 21:41   #104 (permalink)
 
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I also think recent history proves that if the pilots had gone straight to industrial action in the form of ANY operations disruptions (as many argued they should), Qantas would have shut down the airline immediately - it would have provided exactly the excuse they were looking for to pull out, and use the nuclear option. They were always going to do it, goading the employees to cause the disruption first.
Breakfast

I agree but nevertheless, all these disputes and work according to rules type things, belong to the stone age of work relations......for they only achieve one thing.....they hurt the compagny even more than already the case.
Do not forget the essential cultural element in work relations. They always have, to say the least, been very volatile in Australian history as in the UK or in France.
Germany, just like the scandinavian countries have a much more consential way of doung things, even if it takes forever to reach a decision.
German history, especially innthe 1920's was rather brutal and it has marked the country forever.
The airline business model is a very fragile one and the customer, already stressed out if his brain trying to make a buck, doesn't need the uncertainty brought by these sorts of disputes. He simply wants to bugger off to work or on holliday and no 500 000 or 250 000 a year is going to make him feel sorry.
There is always nowadays, another Emirates, Ethihad.....etc to fall back on.
Loyalty is very fickle these days and as a customer.......I am no different, you are no different.
I am amazed at my ability to change given the fact I am really a creature of habits. Like the germans.....I hate uncertainty.
According to Maslov's pyramid, the very first and basic human need is security / certainty. It is simply hard wired in us.
The Clifford and Joyce's are just banking on it.
Union's job has become close to impossible. At the same time, exercise your right to rightfull or wrongfull ( not my business ) claims........and not scare the customer and hurt foward bookings.......for in the end....it's not the Clifford or the Joyce you hurt....but yourself. They have a very fat bank account.......you need to pay your mortgage.
This is what brought some ( very marginal ) legitimacy to the last month lock out, allowing Joyce to face the media and the public with an altar boy's face claiming he was only protecting the compagny's interests......and in a way.....he was.
Unions are going to have to rack their brain and become a lot more creative for it's the beancounters who are calling the shots right now and what I read in the Herald Financial section this morning is no promise for a bright future.
In a nutshell.....this job sucks !

Last edited by Me Myself; 28th Nov 2011 at 21:54.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 08:40   #105 (permalink)
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Talking

Given the recent news, I thought this thread was worth a revisit. A couple of my favourites from page 1:

Quote:
I was at a EK roadshow where this was asked. The response was absolutely wont be happening. Sorry to burst the bubble with fact.... :roll eyes:
Quote:
gotta love the level of arrogance from this group. Like EK gives a rats about QF drivers.
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 00:29   #106 (permalink)
 
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The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence!

If you absolutely hate your job at QF and can see no future there for yourself then it can be a fun, challenging, beneficial, career move to head elsewhere.

If you are not absolutely sure then consider the following.

Your current boss is directing new aircraft, new routes etc to Jetstar which is upsetting you and slowing, or halting any chance of career advancement. Your union and you are pretty much powerless to stop the above. It is not fair that any ones job should be put at risk or have their conditions or pay reduced at the whim of senior management. So you are considering packing up and moving to the middle east......

Rather than volunteer to help make QF more money by working harder and perhaps reducing overtime payments or what ever QF want from you (note I am not saying that QF are correct) and perhaps see a return to expansion, new routes, continuous promotion and a more fulfilling career for all, you are still considering a move to EK.......

EK is a middle eastern airline, where forming any kind of union is an offense.
People have gone to jail for trying it.
There is no voice of reason, no union backup or peer support. You will get what you get, when they give it. It will always be on their terms not yours, it is not your country either so do not think that you have the same rights as locals, because you don't.
You will fly close to maximum hours, minimum days off continually, with less crew than you do in QF, in a much more demanding environment. For the first time in your life you will live with the constant fear of fatigue and the possible jail time you will serve if you make a mistake because of it.

Perhaps it is time to consider bending a little at home and work with the company that you all once loved. It will take a lot less compromise and subservience than selling your skills to the highest bidder and becoming their slave.
I have done both and wish you guys all the best with your choices.
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 03:58   #107 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps it is time to consider bending a little at home and work with the company that you all once loved.
Agree with the sentiment - it's a pity that Clifford/Joyce aren't prepared to work with any of the Qantas staff. There is no doubt that the plan is to grow Jetstar at the expense of Qantas.
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 15:29   #108 (permalink)
 
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The latest rumour is that the former 767 fleet manager, now humble line driver,(remember the bloke who was going to be CP for FarQ?) was recently seen in Doha interviewing for a LWOP position with Qatar. Rats/ sinking ships anyone?

Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 22nd Feb 2012 at 16:37.
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Old 22nd Feb 2012, 19:39   #109 (permalink)
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Didn't he have a gig with them when the Fleet Manager position was advertised so he went for that instead?
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 00:47   #110 (permalink)
 
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Dunno mate. I believe this to be quite recent, a matter of weeks rather than months.
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 01:48   #111 (permalink)
 
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Qatar have planes parked due lack of crew, they will take anyone at the moment. Is that the best he can do?
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 03:44   #112 (permalink)
 
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He knows a few QF drivers who are already there.
One of them, however, was a paid up member of the
"get Jase" campaign.
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Old 23rd Feb 2012, 19:34   #113 (permalink)
 
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The number of people who weren't a member of that campaign could be counted on one hand...with a couple of fingers to spare.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 02:43   #114 (permalink)
 
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It is looking grim in general for QF 767 drivers, captains in particular after the latest Flight crew briefings.

Most of the commands on the J* A330's that will return to mainline will be allocated to A list pilots, leaving 767 captains with the option of taking a backward step to the 737 or a bigger backwards step by taking a demotion.

The line being spun by management regarding the 787 is classic wedge politics.

"No 787 if flown at A330 rates"! is the mantra.

So what does AIPA do? Bid for the 787 on 767 rates thereby lowering the relativity's in place? Or does it stick to its guns and demand the logical A330 rate?

Given that the 787 is unlikely to be flown by mainline anyway then AIPA will be blamed by management and some naive pilots for when it goes elsewhere.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 03:18   #115 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Given that the 787 is unlikely to be flown by mainline
Correct, however it suits managements ends to have a "rate" published as a line in the sand, obliviously, the lower the better force other groups to bid below it.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 03:23   #116 (permalink)
 
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Kremin,
What are the arguments that support the B787 at the A330 rates. Equally, why should it be at the B767 rate? Why should it not be at the B767 rate?
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 03:25   #117 (permalink)
 
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Size, weight, range.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 03:34   #118 (permalink)
 
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QF is supposed to be getting the 787-9. Compare the Specs.

A330 MTOW 233,000 789 MTOW 251,000

Seating two class A330=approx 300/ 789= approx 300

Wingspan for both ~60m

Its not a 767.

Last edited by Capt Kremin; 24th Feb 2012 at 03:50.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 04:08   #119 (permalink)
 
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OK. So you are introducing a new basis on which to calculate QF pilots pay are you?
787 is not a 767 agreed.
Which QF type has as it's pay basis, wingspan? MTOW? seating capacity? speed? weight? range?
The classic? the 747-400? the B767? the A330? the A380? the B737?

IMHO it's not a particularly good time to introduce a new methodology, making the B787 the first.
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Old 24th Feb 2012, 04:32   #120 (permalink)
 
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I'll throw in another grenade. Qantas should move to FLEET pay! So a 737 guy works his ass off for half the pay of the fat cat on the A380. That makes sense......How about a pilot is a pilot.
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