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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 6th Jun 2013, 15:47
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Picking up from Sarcs post. Mr Mrdak promised a response by the end of the week. Perhaps a Friday 16.59 response?

Mr Mrdak: We already have officers in the department—and clearly me and senior officers—who have carefully read the report now. I have had discussions with my senior officers. We envisage being in a position to provide some initial advice to the minister, I expect, certainly within the next week to 10 days in relation to it. We have been through the process of the budget and now estimates. I envisage having conversations with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority CEO and the head of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau in the coming days to ascertain their views, to enable me to provide a comprehensive view to the minister, I would hope by the end of next week.
The pot plants have probably been privy to some delicate and some more robust conversation this week.
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Old 6th Jun 2013, 17:56
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What amazes me is that there are still supporters out there prostrating themselves before Sith Mrdak's illustrious throne and blowing so much air up his ass that he risks becoming a giant balloon and floating off into the horizon!
As a reminder to viewers, Mr Mrdak has for some time been for better of words, president over this mess. It is his two departments, CAsA and ATSBeaker that have, under his watch, become a case study for obsfucation, incompetence, lunacy, ineptitude and arrogance, to mention just a handful of things. In other words - pony pooh.

I so not see any level of government from the CEO and Commissioner's of the departments in question to officers, bureaucrats up to the Minister as currently doing a reasonable job. The final words of Senator Xenophon in the senate report succinctly sums up the current mess that all of the above individuals should be held accountable for. "With responsibility comes accountability". Or so it should in a normal world.
So how anybody would or could honestly say that he/she thinks the current departments are robust, adequate, safe, improving annually, compliant or even 'leaders in their field' is twisted. There are however a number of reasons one could speculate on as to why an individual would or could be so supportive of the current malaise, but that could potentially open up a litigators can of worms.
Nonetheless it would appear that those who robustly throw their weight behind this current shamozzle indeed 'have their hand on it'.

However it does make for interesting thinking, or robust discussion with the BRB across the table while indulging in bottles of Jack Daniels and Cuban cigars in a modestly lit subterranean refuge with some Buble playing in the background and a smattering of pot plants decorating the surroundings.
Oh dear, I'm starting to sound like the GWM!

Leadie, if I may indulge on just this one occasion -
"Tootle pip"

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Old 6th Jun 2013, 18:50
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wercras:

So how anybody would or could honestly say that he/she thinks the current departments are robust, adequate, safe, improving annually, compliant or even 'leaders in their field' is twisted. There are however a number of reasons one could speculate on as to why an individual would or could be so supportive of the current malaise, but that could potentially open up a litigators can of worms.
I can explain it for you. It is very simple. Mrdak and the entire public service are out of their depth when it comes to aviation because they have no technical experience of Aviation whatsoever.

I know what that feels like. I was once recruited as a General Manager, Systems Integration, for a reasonably sized IT company and I was completley, technically, out of my depth. You have no idea what that is like until you find yourself chairing a meeting of technical specialists charged with developing the technical strategy for a $40 million IT system.

CASA correctly calculates that no one in Government has the slightest idea about what they do and any criticism or unwelcome enquiry can be easily deflected by reference to impenetrable jargon: FAA, ICAO, Warsaw Convention, Adiabatic lapse rates, thronomisters, Bernoulli, etc. This is where the impenetrable and unnecessary complexifications of the Australian regulations also helps.

CASA owns the territory because it has created an impossibly impenetrable system that no one outside CASA can unravel. This will no doubt be backed up with the unspoken threat: "If you mess with it Minister, then you own it, and if anything goes wrong then its YOU who are to blame.".

As I said previously, the boyz and girlz in PM & C know how to deal with this and so do some Ppruners - break up CASA into separte regulator and enforcer, get in outside expertise and go through management ranks with an axe, however the current Minister has no stomach for that.

To put that another way, the public service wouldn't know the difference between a Notam and a Timtam, so they leave CASA to its own devices.

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Old 6th Jun 2013, 19:27
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Sunfish,

I think your logic explains why so many questions in estimates are about pot plants, taxis, drones and noise. All issues around the edges and nice sound bites. (Although Senator Nash is entertaining and sure she will ask if you spend that on taxi's can I see the airfare and hotel costs next). Senators Fawcett and Xenophon had to fight for their limited time slot not being wasted.


Not having packet of TimTams in cockpit - 50 penalty points.
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Old 6th Jun 2013, 21:27
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Beaker: "No comment!"

HMHB:
Mr Mrdak promised a response by the end of the week. Perhaps a Friday 16.59 response?
Here's a thought... why not tw**t Albo and ask him what Kingcrat and the dept have come up with given the 'on the record' commitment the head crat made at Senate Estimates, here's his account....(fill in the blanks).. @AlboMP (ps heard he'll be spruiking roads, rail and everything but aviation down in Tassie-devil land so he might have a chance to respond in between stubbies of Cascade )

004:
I so not see any level of government from the CEO and Commissioner's of the departments in question to officers, bureaucrats up to the Minister as currently doing a reasonable job. The final words of Senator Xenophon in the senate report succinctly sums up the current mess that all of the above individuals should be held accountable for. "With responsibility comes accountability". Or so it should in a normal world.
Top post 004! It is also interesting that as of last Friday it would appear that mi..mi..mi..Beaker is still in a state of denial (well according to the Beaker bl*g):
said...
Mr Dolan, In one of your reply's you mention that the Minister has the power to direct you to investigate a particular matter. In your opinion should he now direct the ATSB to re-investigate the pel-air ditching and recover that particular westwinds data recorder?
May 30, 2013 09:30

Martin Dolan, Chief Commissioner (author) said...
A Senate committee has made a number of recommendations to the ATSB, including that we re-open the investigation and recover the recorders. The ATSB will carefully consider those recommendations - and others relevant to us - and respond to them. Until we have done that, we won’t be commenting on those recommendations.
May 31, 2013 09:56
What a WOFTAM...shift him back to COMCARE heard they're a little bit busy at the moment??

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Old 6th Jun 2013, 23:27
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But, You had to be there.

Rather than be bored fartless wading through the howling of those that bay at the full moon dressed in rose coloured underwear; I dusted off the last estimates Hansard and compared some of the passages of play to the recorded version. Pages 107 to 110 inclusive were, to say the least, fascinating to an admitted political dunderhead.. Thought I might float them and see what some of the more astute learned colleagues made of them.
Senator XENOPHON: I have got two more questions. What prompted you to focus on the Bankstown office?
I wonder why Sen.X has his eagle eye on this particular office, out of the many?
Senator XENOPHON: Was there any material associated with the report, such as a covering note or notes attached to that report, that CASA did not provide to the committee? You may want to take that on notice. In other words, as part of the extensive process of obtaining documents as part of the preliminary enquiry, the many boxes of documents, we got the report—
Senator XENOPHON: I would urge you to take this on notice, in fairness to you.
Senator XENOPHON: Were there any covering notes or any associated materials with that report that were not provided to the committee?
Senator XENOPHON: My understanding is that there was not a covering note or any associated note with the report, but I would like to know whether there was one ?
If I were ever asked a series of questions like that by Sen.X I would be wondering, very hard, exactly what he had tucked away in his brief case, wouldn't you?? On notice now.

Then there is the intriguing bit where McComic doesn't feel able to 'honestly' answer 'background' questions on CAO 48 by Sen. Rhiannon because the document is not in front of him – despite it being offered. Then in steps the doughty Mrdak, once again pouring oil on the troubled waters. That must have been an interesting dinner break, Lasagne and a well thumbed CAO 48 for dessert. Humble pie is not served – ever.

Top of P 108, more questions to go on notice, then the loaded gun "will I hear from CASA afterwards"? – No says the Chair, but you will formally hear from Mrdak and the answers will be on record. So where are they???, these dinner break epiphanies. Seems all answers are now to come from the minister via Mrdak; which of it's self is strange seeing as the questions are legitimate for Estimates.

A little later, we have Heffernan, struggling to be heard over the 'noise complaints' lady, who stood up, parked right in front of the microphone and proceeded to kick up a hell of a racket. Meanwhile Heff is trying to raise concerns over some "pretty serious issues" raised by a letter from a solicitor in Cooma. All agreed that there was to be a 'conference' (off stage) with key people as "this is not an issue to muck about with". Having decided that a cosy chat was to eventuate (one hopes the minutes are available), they were off and racing the bloody clock again. Considering the amount of time everything else takes, I was curious as to why the demon "clock" ruled, perhaps everyone was just hungry.

Sen. Edwards wonders about meetings with the minister, McComic hasn't been invited and Mrdak, once more into the breach' covers the 20 accidents mentioned and the 26 recommendations as being a matter of urgency but it is, after all the ministers call. Not sure I like these "serious" issues being discussed behind closed doors, at all.
Mr Mrdak: I undertook that this morning and the government will respond in a very timely way, I believe.
Fascinating stuff, I guess M. Mrdak esq. has decided to stage manage the whole thing seeing as how his two Muppets now toddle about the place with "Kick me" signs stuck on the back of their shiny suits. Aye, passing strange are the ways of gummint.

Last edited by Kharon; 6th Jun 2013 at 23:32. Reason: Bloody spacing -
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 03:52
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I think Sith Mrdak has decided to shelve Beaker and ESSO for now because ESSO cannot utter a sentence without using anger or insulting people and Beaker is only capable of mi mi mi mi. Safer to park them on a shelf (like a CAsA procedures manual or other associated shelfware) rather than have both of them shooting off multiple feet.
At least Mrdak can articulate, even if it is all a load of spin coated buggerised folly.

Kharon, Sen X certainly had a robust thread running on Bankstown. I guess we can only speculate about the message he was sending through his line of inquiry, but perhaps in laymans terms it was something like this -
'I have some documents in front of me boys, but some of it is missing and, well, you tried to sneak the incomplete document through without attaching all of it, and that is naughty, you see I have the entire document, warts and all, and if you bull**** me I am going to crucify you for lying under oath. So either come clean and submit the missing bits, at least that way you haven't lied but of course you look like you have been covering up, or you can lie, i release the missing page(s) and you become instantly unemployed, and you get to speak with the Feds too'.

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Old 7th Jun 2013, 05:58
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004wercras...

Or words to that effect!

A very nice 'potted version' of the message that the Senator was conveying - well done!

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Old 7th Jun 2013, 13:39
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Thumbs down The way forward

Rumour has it that Dom James and Co have defamation lawyers lined up with CASA and the ATSB in their sites. It will be interesting to watch Mrdak represent his clowns in court. Once all the evidence is public, and away from privilege, its a field day for the lawyers! Maybe the pain will be a lesson to public servants in the future. Skull, Dolan, Mrdak - SHAME SHAME SHAME..
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 14:35
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Senator Xenophon talks of many others that made submissions in confidence fearing retribution. They may also soon be in a position to take action too. I wonder if the lawyers can take some multiple action for a number of people?
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 21:09
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Jingle # 2029 – "Rumour has it that Dom James and Co have defamation lawyers lined up with CASA and the ATSB in their sites." etc.
I had it from a fairly reliable refuelling source that "Defo" is a very hard argument to win, particularly when qualified privilege* is dragged into the mix. It was mentioned that a 'defective administration' beef may be an easier row to hoe. Looking back over some of Wodgers cases it is fairly easy to define where due process was not correctly followed and where 'bluff' and administrative liberties where taken. (Famous foot shots of the nasty, nameless and faceless).

Mr ENTSCH (Leichhardt—Chief Opposition Whip)(21:30
This industry urgently needs an independent body and rights mechanisms to hold CASA Cairns accountable for their own inadequacies and conduct. After 14 September, I will be calling for a full inquiry. I will not let Barrier be destroyed without holding those individuals who are directly responsible for this sordid business accountable for their actions. {my bold}.
It seems Mr. Entsch has picked up the same vibe in Cairns as Sen. X has from Bankstown. The question is, I suppose, will that inquiry be opened up to include the 'industry' or simply restricted to Cairns?. Seems to me a shame to get all the tools out and then only do half the job. The momentum from the Senate has kick started the process, it would be a pity to loose that. Is it worth sending email or letters to Entsch requesting the proposed inquiry be opened up to let all the kids and the "minority" ills of society mob have a whack at the piñata ??

It would be worth the expense just to watch Mrdak wielding a razor sharp knife on behalf of a minister (or junior minister) who wanted to know the answers, wasn't remotely interested in covering up the mistakes of the present incumbent and had half an idea where the skeletons are buried. Now that, I would buy a ticket for.

PS. Nice catch 004; Gobbles sends a Choccy frog and says that he will be home from the fleshpots of Montreal in time for the elections and the BRB Inquiry ball (fancy dress this year – his favourite)........

Creamy - fixed it. Glad you knew what I was banging on about.

Last edited by Kharon; 7th Jun 2013 at 23:31. Reason: * Thanks Creamy - whatever it is, they say it's a bugger to beat.
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 23:24
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I had it from a fairly reliable refuelling source that "Defo" is a very hard argument to win, particularly when professional privilege is dragged into the mix.
You mean qualified privilege, not professional privilege.

Prospects of success: almost nil.
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 23:51
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I would be interested to know where the defamation took place. Anything said in the Senate Inquiry is subject to parliamentary privilege and the ATSB report can't be used as evidence in a court of law. That only leaves media outlets and I don't recall anything defamatory being said on ACA or TT!

If Mr Entsch is serious about exposing corrupt practices then he should be calling for a Royal Commission-something that has a bit more clout to it.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 13:50
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Connecting dots?

Sarcs, some very good points. Senator Xenophon and Co, Warren Entsch et al are chipping away to the best of their ability.
Perhaps the two gentlemen have a robust understanding of ANZ's encounter with Mt Erebus? By all accounts the Erebus accident and Pel Air's ditching are chalk and cheese. However it becomes very very similar when you look at the actions of the key power brokers.

New Zealand (Erebus);

• The CAA was incompetent and tried to cover up.
• The Government of the day was incompetent, crooked and tried to cover up.
• The accident investigator of the day was incompetent and tried to cover up.
• The then Prime Minister was not interested in truth or justice.
• All blamed the pilots.

Australia (Norfolk);
• The CAsA has been incompetent and it has been alleged during the inquiry, tried to cover up.
• Our Government has been incompetent and allowed monumental travesty of justice to occur. Spin, lies and deceit.
• The ATSBeaker has tried to spin, deflect, has proven incompetent, conducted a woeful investigation and is also lead by an incompetent leader.
• Our Minister is not interested in fact, truth or justice for those suffering.
• All have blamed the Pilots (well Dom anyway).

Although there are other factors involved with both accidents I have mentioned, it is amazing to see similar tactics by governments and bureaucracies taking place?
Long stretch of the bow one may ask? Perhaps. Then again, perhaps not. Either way, should the astute Senators push for a royal commission then it may be wise to study up about the treatment of Mahon in his quest for transparency and justice.

Apologies for the slight drift, it is not my intention to rehash Erebus on this thread, but the behind the scenes political similarities do align in my opinion.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 17:21
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Just let there be no smoking hole today............I'm trying QF again.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 21:12
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The question is, I suppose, will that inquiry be opened up to include the 'industry' or simply restricted to Cairns?
The real question is whether there will ever be an inquiry? Highly unlikely I suspect. And I'm sure Warren Entsch will be very quiet 14 September.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 22:13
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In pragmatic hope.

Taily, agree; in all probability the Hon. Entsch will slide off the fork come Sept, especially if he is allowed to through industry apathy or a belief that nothing can be done. I expect it's up to the individual to decide if the 60 seconds it takes to send an email applauding and supporting his very public declaration is worth the effort. "Great idea, go for it Wazza, bring it on....etc."

I'll support Thorny on this one. If nothing is done, then apart from a few dreamers and the 'heavies' the detrimental effect of the 'malign influence' will drive 'large' GA operations out of existence. I doubt, given the vast amounts of 'national' debt that the cost of doing business will ever be reduced; but, it may be hoped that the ability to conduct business and attract investment improves. For my small say – a Junior minister and a panel of four 'truly' independent analysts could sort out the issues in about six months, there is help available, the Auditor General, the Attorney General and the AFP - for example. We have the tools, just need some political horsepower (flower-power or firepower for the purists).

Anyway – Even if 'Wazza' ditches the rhetoric (again), somehow I just can't see the likes of Fawcett, Xenophon, Macdonald, Nash, Edwards and even Sterle walking away, with a clear conscience, from the disgusting Pel Air episode. They simply know too much.

Fingers crossed : eyes wide open....

For clarity - TB. - So our regulators, happy with the odd brown paper bag on Friday arvo, free lunches and "Study" trips continue to "regulate" the industry into oblivion. What will these people do when there's nothing left to regulate, no free lunches then. From the Barrier thread.

Last edited by Kharon; 8th Jun 2013 at 22:46. Reason: Seems I forgot Sen. Edwards - you know who you are.
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Old 9th Jun 2013, 02:26
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Industry apathy or fear of retribution??

Kharon:
Anyway – Even if 'Wazza' ditches the rhetoric (again), somehow I just can't see the likes of Fawcett, Xenophon, Macdonald, Nash, Edwards and even Sterle walking away, with a clear conscience, from the disgusting Pel Air episode. They simply know too much.
Perhaps the 'few good men' and woman (Sen Nash) should be given more encouragement?? The 'Heff' emphasised in Estimates that this was a Partisan enquiry:
Senator HEFFERNAN: It weighed heavily on the minds of all members of the committee—and you will note it was a unanimous report—that we address the issues raised in the way we have. We absolutely wanted to be open and honest in that report and we did not want to have even the slightest prospect that in future there could be a calamity which would come back to haunt our conscience.
But as we all know there is no votes in partisan politics, however if industry stakeholders encouraged the Senators to keep the pressure up..let them know we're not going away then perhaps at least we may 'Save our Bureau' and make steps towards fixing the festering, corrupt, malfeasance within the walls of Fort Fumble.

By the way I missed the following media release from Senator Fawcett's web page (must be falling down on the job):

** Media Release **
30 May 2013
MR 05/13

AVIATION SAFETY AT RISK UNDER GOVERNMENT BUDGET CUTS


It has been revealed in Senate Estimates this week that aviation safety has been given a lower priority than the desperate attempt at balancing the budget by the Gillard government.
On questioning by Senator David Fawcett, the Chief Commissioner of the Australian Transport and Safety Bureau (ATSB), Mr Martin Dolan, revealed that the substantial cuts to the ATSB budget were imposed on them without consultation and necessarily eroded the capacity of ATSB to complete the range of activities expected of it.
Mr Dolan highlighted that the cuts resulted in reducing staff numbers and choosing not to investigate some matters or constraining an investigation because of the call on his resources.
This is a serious dereliction of duty by the Gillard government given Minister Albanese’s declaration in 2008 that “nothing, I repeat nothing, is as important in aviation as safety”.
The Senate report into aviation safety released just last week highlights the unintended consequences of cutting funds to a safety agency.
“The Gillard government stands condemned for these grossly irresponsible cuts to Australia’s aviation safety investigator,” Senator Fawcett said.
So you can see that DF isn't going away anytime soon...here is a couple of the other Senator's webpage addresses for your interest.

Nick Xenophon and his enquiry report 'media release'.
Senator Macdonald.
Senator Edwards.
Senator Nash on CAsA taxi fares.
And don't forget Wazza.

Stop wingeing don't be defeatist and speak up....

ps PAIN sure aren't going away..see PAIN:
Oz Aviation Industry and Sen RRAT Com requires urgent response from DoIT and @AlboMP to Senate AAI (Pel-Air) report

Last edited by Sarcs; 9th Jun 2013 at 20:26. Reason: Oldtimers move with the times or get off the pot!
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Old 9th Jun 2013, 10:07
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But Senator Fawcett's release is pure politics.

Who believes the ATSB's behaviour during the Pel Air investigation is the product of funding cuts alone? Diligent but overworked and underfunded experts?

Senator Xenophon was on ABC's Insiders this morning. Warren Truss last week. Not one question and not one syllable uttered about aviation safety or accident investigation.
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Old 9th Jun 2013, 11:20
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Sarcs,
$180k on taxi fares and the CFO can't provide a breakdown? Hardly believable. Don't CAsA folk still collect all their little receipts and stick them to A4 paper, attach an explanation and then have them signed off by a Manager prior to them being submitted to Finance? Seems a bit odd that a CFO in a Government department can't reoncile almost $200k worth of cab fares?? I think I smell pooh. Maybe they need Betty to return, considering her and Herr Harbor felt that they ran the place! Oh Mr Skull, no control of the departments finances, tsk tsk. Is it because of a lack of procedures and processes? A failure to adhere to internal SOP's? Time for KPMG to come and do a robust audit?? PENALTY = 50 points.

And poor old Pete the Pot Plant. Another $150k caring for his needs, and the needs of his fellow plants. Add that to the taxi bill and here alone is a total of $330k of waste. Tsk tsk. And to think they could have shared that money with their brother Beaker!! It could have paid for the retrieval of the Pel Air CVR/FDR, had some left over change and flown to Washington business class to use the NTSB's equipment to examine the recordings.
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