DASH 8 accident in PNG
With reference to post #82, (two above).
Flame out, multiple over speed suggested, more as a tech question , rather than per this accident, with the 102's, is a fuel topping governor the last resort in these PTS donks ?
I really don't know?
This is not an alliteration, just a query.
Flame out, multiple over speed suggested, more as a tech question , rather than per this accident, with the 102's, is a fuel topping governor the last resort in these PTS donks ?
I really don't know?
This is not an alliteration, just a query.
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Spot on the money Kiwiconehead, as always 
Blackhand, when you wrote "retarded to beta gate" - did you mean the flight idle stops? If so, it's quite normal to be at, or very near the flight idle stops on a 2:1 descent when at, or near Vmo. At other times, of course flight idle may be necessary for quick speed reduction (though normally in conjunction with Condition Levers MAX).
I can't quote on this particular instance, but in 13 years of flying the Dash, I have never head of a failure of a power lever trigger, nor of any inadvertent activation of same in flight.
Blackhand, when you wrote "retarded to beta gate" - did you mean the flight idle stops? If so, it's quite normal to be at, or very near the flight idle stops on a 2:1 descent when at, or near Vmo. At other times, of course flight idle may be necessary for quick speed reduction (though normally in conjunction with Condition Levers MAX).
I can't quote on this particular instance, but in 13 years of flying the Dash, I have never head of a failure of a power lever trigger, nor of any inadvertent activation of same in flight.
Thought I would post the following article from radio australia which implies differently to the above post.
Papua New Guinea's Civil Aviation and Safety Authority says results from an investigation into a fatal plane crash could have implications for the world's fleet of Dash 8 aircraft.
Twenty-eight people died when the Airlines PNG Dash 8 crashed near the coastal town Madang earlier this month.
The company grounded all its craft of that model.
David Inau, from PNG's Accident Investigation Commission, says officials are preparing the preliminary report.
"The airworthiness inspection of all the records, what maintenance was done on the aircraft, is still going on," Mr Inau said.
"And if there are any findings of any airworthiness issues, it may have implications to this type of aircraft worldwide."
Papua New Guinea's Civil Aviation and Safety Authority says results from an investigation into a fatal plane crash could have implications for the world's fleet of Dash 8 aircraft.
Twenty-eight people died when the Airlines PNG Dash 8 crashed near the coastal town Madang earlier this month.
The company grounded all its craft of that model.
David Inau, from PNG's Accident Investigation Commission, says officials are preparing the preliminary report.
"The airworthiness inspection of all the records, what maintenance was done on the aircraft, is still going on," Mr Inau said.
"And if there are any findings of any airworthiness issues, it may have implications to this type of aircraft worldwide."
I read a press release that APNG wrote in the PNG papers stating that the accident was caused by component failure.
I really wonder how they could have come up with such a conclusion considering that the authorities haven't even released a preliminary yet.
Did any one else see this press release ?
I really wonder how they could have come up with such a conclusion considering that the authorities haven't even released a preliminary yet.
Did any one else see this press release ?
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Waghi,
Text of release below. I agree, it seems a little premature. Yesterday's National newspaper actually ran with similar info yesterday, including the cost of the component required to fix the problem, and the man hours required to fit it! That National article is inserted here below the APNG press release.
Text of release below. I agree, it seems a little premature. Yesterday's National newspaper actually ran with similar info yesterday, including the cost of the component required to fix the problem, and the man hours required to fit it! That National article is inserted here below the APNG press release.
A STATEMENT TO ALL THOSE WHO FLY WITH US
____________________________________________________________ _______________________________
You will have heard by now that
Airlines PNG has been given the ‘all clear’ to return its Dash 8 aircraft to service, with flights resuming today Friday, 28 October 2011.
We want everyone to know that while we all still grieve following the recent accident in Madang, you can have total confidence when you fly with Airlines PNG.
We want everyone to know that while we all still grieve following the recent accident in Madang, you can have total confidence when you fly with Airlines PNG.
This not just us saying we’re safe. Since the accident, CASA PNG
has led a team involving overseas experts from regulatory authorities in Australia and Canada together with representatives of the people who build the plane and make the engines.
The absolute safety of our aircraft and our systems has been confirmed
through their tireless efforts. We have always been confident that the integrity of our safety practices would be confirmed by rigorous scrutiny. While a full investigation continues to be carried out, early evidence points to a failure of a component on the aircraft through no fault of the airline, the pilots, or anyone else at Airlines PNG. It caused a loss of power to both engines, leaving the flight crew with no alternative other than to attempt an emergency landing. We have been assured that such a component failure can in no way be attributed to any maintenance practice, or operational procedures over which Airlines PNG has responsibility. Action is now being taken to make sure it cannot happen again, not only on our Dash-8 aircraft, but by those also flown by others in PNG and around the world.
Airlines PNG provides a vital service to everyone in PNG. We also know that people need to have confidence every time they board an aircraft, whether it’s operated by us or anyone else. We believe you can have that confidence when you fly with us.
Airlines PNG provides a vital service to everyone in PNG. We also know that people need to have confidence every time they board an aircraft, whether it’s operated by us or anyone else. We believe you can have that confidence when you fly with us.
We will continue to work with the official regulators to make sure all our aircraft,
our
engineering and maintenance staff, and our pilots meet the highest world aviation
standards. Every day, our people work hard to deliver your safety, and they will continue to do that too.
engineering and maintenance staff, and our pilots meet the highest world aviation
standards. Every day, our people work hard to deliver your safety, and they will continue to do that too.
The safety authorities have carried out the most thorough and rigorous investigation and tests, and they have established beyond doubt that our aircraft are absolutely safe to fly.
They would not let us operate unless they had total confidence in our aircraft, our pilots, and our engineering and maintenance standards.
You can have absolute confidence in Airlines PNG: our aircraft, our equipment, and our people.
The Team at Airlines PNG
FROM "THE NATIONAL" 28th October 2011
AIRLINES PNG Dash 8 aircraft have returned to service but on strict conditions.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) PNG yesterday cleared the 11 aircraft following preliminary findings of the investigations into the catastrophic Dash 8 crash of Oct 13 in Madang in which 28 out of 32 people on board perished.
The directive required more frequent inspections and test on the propeller governor and power lever systems and, within 120 days, the installation of components that will ensure a failure that occurred in Madang is not repeated.
The new parts will cost US$20,000 per aircraft and some 120 man hours to install in each aircraft.
As more information becomes available, CASA (Australia), which had been monitoring the investigations in PNG with interest, might apply the same airworthiness directive to include Australian operators of Dash 8.
APNG announced it had already placed orders for the parts with Bombardier of Canada.
Civil Aviation Minister Puri Ruing said CASA’s decision was made in consultation with the aircraft manufacturer, Canadian authorities and the accident investigation commission.
Ruing said the CASA directive now required all Dash 8 operators, including Air Niugini, to comply.
There are presently 21 Dash 8 aircraft operating in PNG owned mostly by APNG and Air Niugini.
While a preliminary investigation report has not been made available, it is understood the airworthiness directive affected Dash 8 series 100, 200 and 300 aircraft operating in PNG.
It is understood that a component failure on the aircraft had caused the propellers to go too fast resulting in both engines failing.
This, initially, absolved Airlines PNG of any fault mechanical or human error.
Airlines PNG said yesterday its grounded fleet had undergone extensive maintenance checks and would resume both charter and passenger operations today.
“Airlines PNG have been very cooperative with the authority to make the necessary safety changes to their operations in order for the authority to allow the return of their Dash 8 fleet to service,” Ruing said.
“This return-to-service will be in a progressive manner over the next two weeks and has some imposed conditions pertaining to operational procedures and training.”
Ruing said these were the immediate steps being taken in the interests of aviation safety, however, further safety action could be required as more information became available.
The authority, assisted by CASA Australia, would continue to monitor the safety performance of the airline through audits and surveillance.
Airlines PNG chairman Simon Wild said: “We thank the safety authorities for their tireless efforts which have confirmed the safety of our aircraft and systems.
“We have always been confident that the integrity of our safety practices would be confirmed by rigorous scrutiny.”
“While a full investigation is continuing, preliminary evidence pointed to a component failure through no fault of the airline which resulted in
the loss of power to both engines,
leaving the flight crew with no alternatives but to attempt an emergency landing.
“In accordance with recommendations from the safety authorities, steps have been taken to ensure such failure did not take place on any of our aircraft, and we understand that all other Dash 8 operators in PNG are implementing the same safeguards,” Wild said.
FROM "THE NATIONAL" 28th October 2011
AIRLINES PNG Dash 8 aircraft have returned to service but on strict conditions.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) PNG yesterday cleared the 11 aircraft following preliminary findings of the investigations into the catastrophic Dash 8 crash of Oct 13 in Madang in which 28 out of 32 people on board perished.
The directive required more frequent inspections and test on the propeller governor and power lever systems and, within 120 days, the installation of components that will ensure a failure that occurred in Madang is not repeated.
The new parts will cost US$20,000 per aircraft and some 120 man hours to install in each aircraft.
As more information becomes available, CASA (Australia), which had been monitoring the investigations in PNG with interest, might apply the same airworthiness directive to include Australian operators of Dash 8.
APNG announced it had already placed orders for the parts with Bombardier of Canada.
Civil Aviation Minister Puri Ruing said CASA’s decision was made in consultation with the aircraft manufacturer, Canadian authorities and the accident investigation commission.
Ruing said the CASA directive now required all Dash 8 operators, including Air Niugini, to comply.
There are presently 21 Dash 8 aircraft operating in PNG owned mostly by APNG and Air Niugini.
While a preliminary investigation report has not been made available, it is understood the airworthiness directive affected Dash 8 series 100, 200 and 300 aircraft operating in PNG.
It is understood that a component failure on the aircraft had caused the propellers to go too fast resulting in both engines failing.
This, initially, absolved Airlines PNG of any fault mechanical or human error.
Airlines PNG said yesterday its grounded fleet had undergone extensive maintenance checks and would resume both charter and passenger operations today.
“Airlines PNG have been very cooperative with the authority to make the necessary safety changes to their operations in order for the authority to allow the return of their Dash 8 fleet to service,” Ruing said.
“This return-to-service will be in a progressive manner over the next two weeks and has some imposed conditions pertaining to operational procedures and training.”
Ruing said these were the immediate steps being taken in the interests of aviation safety, however, further safety action could be required as more information became available.
The authority, assisted by CASA Australia, would continue to monitor the safety performance of the airline through audits and surveillance.
Airlines PNG chairman Simon Wild said: “We thank the safety authorities for their tireless efforts which have confirmed the safety of our aircraft and systems.
“We have always been confident that the integrity of our safety practices would be confirmed by rigorous scrutiny.”
“While a full investigation is continuing, preliminary evidence pointed to a component failure through no fault of the airline which resulted in
the loss of power to both engines,
leaving the flight crew with no alternatives but to attempt an emergency landing.
“In accordance with recommendations from the safety authorities, steps have been taken to ensure such failure did not take place on any of our aircraft, and we understand that all other Dash 8 operators in PNG are implementing the same safeguards,” Wild said.
I dunno' guys, something here doesn't gel?
Clearly a serious abnormality befell this crew. One of 2 things then happened. Either the crew mishandled the situation, (and I am not saying for one minute this is the case), or there were failures that left the crew with no other choice than to conduct a forced landing.
Now everyone knows that if it's mechanical it can fail. However, according to the airline release we have a completely unforeseen failure in an aircraft type that has been in service for more than a quarter century. In that time the type has been the subject of ongoing AD's, mods to both the aicraft and SOP's, and a depth of knowledge in systems and operating procedures that frankly should cover nearly all the bases. We then have a situation that results in the crew being left with no choice but to put her down there and then. This suggests a chain of events probably never seen before, and according to the airline, something completely outside of their control?
One thing's for sure, the final report will be interesting reading.
Clearly a serious abnormality befell this crew. One of 2 things then happened. Either the crew mishandled the situation, (and I am not saying for one minute this is the case), or there were failures that left the crew with no other choice than to conduct a forced landing.
Now everyone knows that if it's mechanical it can fail. However, according to the airline release we have a completely unforeseen failure in an aircraft type that has been in service for more than a quarter century. In that time the type has been the subject of ongoing AD's, mods to both the aicraft and SOP's, and a depth of knowledge in systems and operating procedures that frankly should cover nearly all the bases. We then have a situation that results in the crew being left with no choice but to put her down there and then. This suggests a chain of events probably never seen before, and according to the airline, something completely outside of their control?
One thing's for sure, the final report will be interesting reading.
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Right on Krusty
Have a fair amount of time on -8s, and can't recall any single component, (other than myself) that could simultaneously affect both engines..
If there is, there shouldn't be
If there is, there shouldn't be
It gives all operators a short time to complete the installation of the FAA beta lockout system. Interesting that Transport Canada has not already required it, considering it came out in 2005.
http://www.casapng.gov.pg/Downloads/...RT%2039.21.pdf
I had heard that Beta Lockout with a 4 month compliance was in there, but the kits have a 4 month lead time, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned.
The MEL revisions are interesting. Effectively removes Autopilot from MEL as well as actually removing RADALT and the Beta Horn.
I'm not sure what the change to the autopilot MEL has to do with in flight operation in the Beta bange.
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CURIOSER AND CURIOSER
With the exception of a simple placard installation AD/DHC8/22 makes absolutely no reference or allusion to the provision of any parts or components. It is concerned solely with revisions and amendments to documentation.
What then is the source of the "component failure" and "cost / man hours per airframe" quoted by the APNG release and The National newspaper respectively?
What then is the source of the "component failure" and "cost / man hours per airframe" quoted by the APNG release and The National newspaper respectively?
Many people in Oz feel touched by this terrible accident. Many PNG families have been smashed.
I must admit, this is probably the most "profesional" or mature accident thread I have read on prune.
Good stuff. I thnk Crusty said it all.
I must admit, this is probably the most "profesional" or mature accident thread I have read on prune.
Good stuff. I thnk Crusty said it all.
A pair of over-spinning propellers is being investigated as the cause of a plane crash that killed 28 people in Papua New Guinea last month.
http://http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8370039/propellers-probable-cause-of-png-crash
http://http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8370039/propellers-probable-cause-of-png-crash
On a more positive point, the PNG AIC have released the preliminary accident report. I have no idea how one could get a copy as they don't appear to have a website, there is nothing on the ATSB website. Super Sid was interviewed yesterday and it was aired on the EMTV news last night. No mention was made of a pre impact onboard fire, although what Sid clearly stated was that both engines appeared to loose all power due to both the props over speeding up to 60% over max RPM simultaneously.
He also indicated that the investigation team still have not pinpointed the root cause of the prop over speeds.
He also indicated that the investigation team still have not pinpointed the root cause of the prop over speeds.
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Mate, go easy, you are assuming, you are also opening yourself to possible libel, nobody knows yet what happened, assume all you like but you know the ol saying 'put it in anything, but don't put it in writing". I checked out a captain in PNG and the very next day he flew into a mountain killing all on board, forty years later, I still sometimes have trouble dealing with it. What did I miss? These two pilots will be going thru hell, they need support, and whilst your anger is directed at the company, and I fully understand your distress, for their sake, close ranks, and wait and see.
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Overspeed both props? At the same time? In a Dash 8? No way!
Yet no proof of what really happened.
The families of the deceased want to know if was the aircraft or pilot