Pax flat tyre thread continued briefly
Thread Starter
Pax flat tyre thread continued briefly
flat tyre thread locked prematurely
If we encourage pax to report observations which they think maybe important
we should treat their comments with a little more respect rather than rant on as per the locked thread
Mods, you can close it off now
If we encourage pax to report observations which they think maybe important
we should treat their comments with a little more respect rather than rant on as per the locked thread
Mods, you can close it off now
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Agreed, sometimes they may just see something important. The more eyes the better. Aloha springs to mind. Tragic the pax did not say something. Better a thousand false alarms than one avoidable prang. That is why we want to keep preflts.
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I paxed on a B737 weeks before a major structual incident with the same Pacific island carrier. I noticed a large number of screws missing overwing and reported it, with no apparent interest from the pilots.
I also operated a B747 ex BNE when the twr reported "something big just fell off your aircraft just after rotate". The something big turned out to be a whole tread which caused damage to the emergency brake plumbing, gear door and fuselage. It later transpired that a tyre had failed long before we had reached the rwy and it was heard by pax and cabin crew, but no-one told us.
And the accident in Canada where pax noticed the ice and snow build up on the wings of an F28 but the message didn't reach the pilots.They all died in that one.
Not all pax are idiots and disregarding their observations can be expensive or even fatal.
Wunwing
I also operated a B747 ex BNE when the twr reported "something big just fell off your aircraft just after rotate". The something big turned out to be a whole tread which caused damage to the emergency brake plumbing, gear door and fuselage. It later transpired that a tyre had failed long before we had reached the rwy and it was heard by pax and cabin crew, but no-one told us.
And the accident in Canada where pax noticed the ice and snow build up on the wings of an F28 but the message didn't reach the pilots.They all died in that one.
Not all pax are idiots and disregarding their observations can be expensive or even fatal.
Wunwing
Notified a hostie on a 737 flight recently about a seat that was not bolted down correctly and was rocking about. No idea if she actually told anyone but she didn't seem interested whatsoever.
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If I'd seen something like that on a flight and the crew member I told seemed disinterested, I'd have no qualms about saying more than just "thanks for the flight" when disembarking and the captain or F/O is stood by the exit. If you do believe something is wrong, especially if you have any technical basis for that belief, you have a moral (and in some jurisdictions probably also a legal) duty to make it known to the right person.
I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of telling NTSB etc. that I'd seen something and decided not to bother anyone ... personally I've never seen anything that was worthy of that action, but at least one colleague has, and did the right thing.
I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of telling NTSB etc. that I'd seen something and decided not to bother anyone ... personally I've never seen anything that was worthy of that action, but at least one colleague has, and did the right thing.
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Taking things further depends on how bad it is and where you are. In some jurisdictions a further report means that you have to stay there at your own expense while things are sorted. And then find your own way with new tickets at your expense.
So not an easy decision if not obviously life threatening.
Wunwing
So not an easy decision if not obviously life threatening.
Wunwing
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Interesting. Pax noticed peeling on the skin of the Hawaiian Airline 737 that had a flight emergency some time ago and told nobody, the skin certainly peeled and they were lucky to survive,so speak up folks.
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TG I think you are referring to the Aloha 737 incident I raised a few posts back.Not Hawaiian
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And the accident in Canada where pax noticed the ice and snow build up on the wings of an F28 but the message didn't reach the pilots.They all died in that one.
Interestingly only one passenger made comment to a FA asking what the crew intended to do about the snow/ice build up. The FAs were concerned but hindered by the feelings that pilots did not accept them as an operational part of the crew.
Also, among the passengers were two captains, one a Dash 8 the other a DC-9. Both believed the crew were aware of the contamination and they would be deiced. The -8 captain said he believed professional courtesy precluded an off duty pilot from drawing the attention of the flight crew to safety concerns.
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Serious Defect Report by Pax.
Following is my Defect Report only advised so far to the operating airline through its "Guest Relations" access on its website on 2 Sep. I am left wondering how "Guest Relations" would handle such a report. My consternation at no response is mounting and my deadline to declare the type unairworthy has almost been reached.
xyz Aircraft - Serious Defect
There appeared to be a serious defect with a flap track/extension mechanism of the xyz aircraft operated by the Airline as flight No X out of A to B on Tuesday 16 August 2011.
The particular item is the outboard track for the inboard flap segment on the right wing.
Soon after engine start the flaps were extended to the take off setting. During the extension the underwing fairing around the flap track began a horizontal convergent flutter which continued until about V1 during take off. The flutter began again after landing and during taxi.
The flutter had a varying amplitude up to an estimated 2 cm at the fairing's trailing end with a frequency of about 10 Hz.
My perception was that the fairing was loose because of either an inadequate or broken attachment or a design defect.
If the assembly fails and there is no protection against asymmetric flap extension/retraction then the consequences could be expected to be catastrophic.
If the problem is a design defect then a simple change in mass balance at the fairing's trailing end may correct the flutter.
I did write a note addressed to the Captain advising him during deplaning at B that he should have some concern about the above problem explained in simplistic terms.
My observation were made from a window seat close to the wing trailing edge. I am a widely experienced retired experimental test pilot and expect to be reassured that the problem will be corrected.
I did not have the opportunity to observe whether the fairing on the left side had a similar problem nor did I determine the registration number of the aircraft.
With concern
Milt etc.
Following is my Defect Report only advised so far to the operating airline through its "Guest Relations" access on its website on 2 Sep. I am left wondering how "Guest Relations" would handle such a report. My consternation at no response is mounting and my deadline to declare the type unairworthy has almost been reached.
xyz Aircraft - Serious Defect
There appeared to be a serious defect with a flap track/extension mechanism of the xyz aircraft operated by the Airline as flight No X out of A to B on Tuesday 16 August 2011.
The particular item is the outboard track for the inboard flap segment on the right wing.
Soon after engine start the flaps were extended to the take off setting. During the extension the underwing fairing around the flap track began a horizontal convergent flutter which continued until about V1 during take off. The flutter began again after landing and during taxi.
The flutter had a varying amplitude up to an estimated 2 cm at the fairing's trailing end with a frequency of about 10 Hz.
My perception was that the fairing was loose because of either an inadequate or broken attachment or a design defect.
If the assembly fails and there is no protection against asymmetric flap extension/retraction then the consequences could be expected to be catastrophic.
If the problem is a design defect then a simple change in mass balance at the fairing's trailing end may correct the flutter.
I did write a note addressed to the Captain advising him during deplaning at B that he should have some concern about the above problem explained in simplistic terms.
My observation were made from a window seat close to the wing trailing edge. I am a widely experienced retired experimental test pilot and expect to be reassured that the problem will be corrected.
I did not have the opportunity to observe whether the fairing on the left side had a similar problem nor did I determine the registration number of the aircraft.
With concern
Milt etc.
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Milt
I also have a bit of experience with experimental aircraft and tend to take notice of abnormal flutter.As a PX flying into Sydney I saw flutter where and in the mode you describe. I reported it to the pilots and they said they said they would report it to their engineers. This occurred about Dec last year.Seems like nothing much has been done about the problem. I certainly wouldn't keep flying that aircraft until the problem was sorted.
Cheers RA
I also have a bit of experience with experimental aircraft and tend to take notice of abnormal flutter.As a PX flying into Sydney I saw flutter where and in the mode you describe. I reported it to the pilots and they said they said they would report it to their engineers. This occurred about Dec last year.Seems like nothing much has been done about the problem. I certainly wouldn't keep flying that aircraft until the problem was sorted.
Cheers RA
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Surprise surprise - now there are at least two of us concerned over the same problem. Thanks for your post RA.
A response has just been received from the airline as follows with a couple of changes to not yet reveal the identity of the airline and aircraft type.
_____________________
"Senior Fleet Engineer
At that time VH - XXX was inspected multiple times, and nil faults found, to indicate there was not an immediate airworthiness issue.
In this case Mr Cottee has reported what appears to be normal conditions of horizontal vibration at the upper end of the Flap moveable Fairing.
Aircraft Type Fleet Manager
When informed of this concern we initiated a detailed inspection of the inboard flap area L/H & R/H. No defects were found. This inspection was carried out by a highly experienced Licensed Aircraft Engineer cerified on type. The movement that Mr Cottee was concerned with is considered normal and comes from the armlink assembly moving on the bushing clamp. This is considered a normal movement, designed to do so. The Airline operates a rigid system of maintenance and on-goings to ensure the safety of our aircraft which involves inspections of the flight control system at scheduled intervals."
________________________
My concerns over airworthiness remain. Had I been involved with the certification of the type I would not have accepted the fluttering for two reasons. Firstly anything fluttering the way this component does will inevitably lead to something failing. Secondly the effects on passengers is hardly conducive to them wanting to stay on board.
The flap fairings are immeditely behind the engines and my conclusion is that eddies from an engine's efflux set up the flutter conditions.
I guess it is now up to the manufacturer to address the problem. I do commend the airline for its reaction to yet another passenger suggestion even if it did come from a TP.
What would you experts do next?
A response has just been received from the airline as follows with a couple of changes to not yet reveal the identity of the airline and aircraft type.
_____________________
"Senior Fleet Engineer
At that time VH - XXX was inspected multiple times, and nil faults found, to indicate there was not an immediate airworthiness issue.
In this case Mr Cottee has reported what appears to be normal conditions of horizontal vibration at the upper end of the Flap moveable Fairing.
Aircraft Type Fleet Manager
When informed of this concern we initiated a detailed inspection of the inboard flap area L/H & R/H. No defects were found. This inspection was carried out by a highly experienced Licensed Aircraft Engineer cerified on type. The movement that Mr Cottee was concerned with is considered normal and comes from the armlink assembly moving on the bushing clamp. This is considered a normal movement, designed to do so. The Airline operates a rigid system of maintenance and on-goings to ensure the safety of our aircraft which involves inspections of the flight control system at scheduled intervals."
________________________
My concerns over airworthiness remain. Had I been involved with the certification of the type I would not have accepted the fluttering for two reasons. Firstly anything fluttering the way this component does will inevitably lead to something failing. Secondly the effects on passengers is hardly conducive to them wanting to stay on board.
The flap fairings are immeditely behind the engines and my conclusion is that eddies from an engine's efflux set up the flutter conditions.
I guess it is now up to the manufacturer to address the problem. I do commend the airline for its reaction to yet another passenger suggestion even if it did come from a TP.
What would you experts do next?
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Yep VBA Engineer said it all.
Its awesome that passengers report defects as long as they don't get the sads when an engineer has a look and tells then they are dreaming.
I think some people may watch too many episodes of "aircrash investigations".
But never the less its good that people speak up, even if you end up being wrong you might at least learn something.
Its awesome that passengers report defects as long as they don't get the sads when an engineer has a look and tells then they are dreaming.
I think some people may watch too many episodes of "aircrash investigations".
But never the less its good that people speak up, even if you end up being wrong you might at least learn something.
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Contact ether Boeing or Embraer, as I guess the airline you are talking about, operates both of these types.
See if the manufacturer respond to your concerns, and if that fails, contact the regulartory authority that gave the type certification.
As a
I am confident that you would be the best placed person to follow this up.
Good luck.
See if the manufacturer respond to your concerns, and if that fails, contact the regulartory authority that gave the type certification.
As a
widely experienced retired experimental test pilot
Good luck.
I once pointed out to a cabin crew member on a SAA B744 that the one of the inboard spoilers was flapping up and down in the airflow. Her response "It's probably ok, it won't fall off"
I thought, why the fcuk did I bother and just went back to drinking heavily.
I thought, why the fcuk did I bother and just went back to drinking heavily.
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Pax Reports
Splitpin44. Mr Milton Cottee is, as he said, a highly experienced test pilot. I am sure what he observed was, in his opinion, an abnormal condition. I am equally certain that his report was not influenced by watching Aircrash Investigations on TV, but rather by his vast practical experience as a test pilot where he would have often had to evaluate inflight performance of aircraft.
Last edited by Old Fella; 9th Sep 2011 at 12:23.
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For what it's worth,the fairing is non-structural and can be mel'd.
In the case of the 73 700/800 you may dispatch without it and by observation,particularly with t'off thrust,they do tend to move around a degree that maybe unsettling for some observers.
In the case of the 73 700/800 you may dispatch without it and by observation,particularly with t'off thrust,they do tend to move around a degree that maybe unsettling for some observers.
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Milt
(.......ANYTHING FLUTTERING THE WAY THIS COMPONENT DOES WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD TO SOMETHING FAILING.)
I totally agree.The component I saw fluttering didn't appear critical to control but.........
A few comments. The component's life would be much longer if it didn't flutter so why not address the problem? I'm sure the engineers checked the component and ensured it complied with design specification. But did anyone ride in the aircraft to see what PXs were on about?
Sometimes there's only a bee's dick between the amount of play that allows a component to flutter or not flutter. Sometimes even slight variations in wear position can effect outcomes. A good example is Cessna 210 nose wheel shimmy. They seem to go forever with no shimmy(flutter) then one day some slight change and away they go. It's not a good answer to say "Well all the play is within specs so it shouldn't shimmy." If the bloody thing does then fix it.
Cheers RA
(.......ANYTHING FLUTTERING THE WAY THIS COMPONENT DOES WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD TO SOMETHING FAILING.)
I totally agree.The component I saw fluttering didn't appear critical to control but.........
A few comments. The component's life would be much longer if it didn't flutter so why not address the problem? I'm sure the engineers checked the component and ensured it complied with design specification. But did anyone ride in the aircraft to see what PXs were on about?
Sometimes there's only a bee's dick between the amount of play that allows a component to flutter or not flutter. Sometimes even slight variations in wear position can effect outcomes. A good example is Cessna 210 nose wheel shimmy. They seem to go forever with no shimmy(flutter) then one day some slight change and away they go. It's not a good answer to say "Well all the play is within specs so it shouldn't shimmy." If the bloody thing does then fix it.
Cheers RA
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Old Fella, I've had a look and struggled to find where I said he wasn't an experienced test pilot.
Like everyone eles who reports a defect only to have an engineer tell them they are dreaming, lets hope the has enough experience not to get sad if hes wrong.
Like I said report the defects and even if your wrong you may learn something. Like just know we have learnt that you can MEL said piece or even fly without it fitted.
Like everyone eles who reports a defect only to have an engineer tell them they are dreaming, lets hope the has enough experience not to get sad if hes wrong.
Like I said report the defects and even if your wrong you may learn something. Like just know we have learnt that you can MEL said piece or even fly without it fitted.