Virgin Australia Long Haul International EBA is up!!
That's the point bustard, growler was congratulating YOU on YOUR payrise...it's just unfortunate that it was achieved at the expense of the other 1000 group pilots who may have wanted to come join you one day. So just for clarity, if a 737 captain transferred today, how many years would it take him to get to your starting salary?
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Voz1
I think you might be trying to make it better than it looks Voz1. You start by saying the pay is basic not including anything (ie Super) is 225K sliding up to 260K after 3 years. The 225K is correct - BUT the 260K approx INCLUDES SUPER. Why change your 3 year figure to make it look better than it is? Dont forget, you sacrificed 3% super as part of the pay rise, as it was previously 12% super.
This EBA is extremely good for company, lots of celebrations there, it is also good for existing VA pilots because they accepted such crap conditions in the 1st place (any pay rise would keep them happy), but it stuffs any chance the VB pilots have of getting fair pay for the A330 (yet to be included in the EBA), and does not leave much room for 737 payrises. The companies comeback to any payrises will be something along the lines of "why pay you lot anymore than $X, when V Aus 777 pilots only get X amount?"
While certainly better than the contracts originally accepted, it is very short-sighted, and could shaft the majority of VB pilots.
4 years!!
For the record basic not including anything i.e. No super, overtime, allowances, DDO payments, ect Captain is $225k year sliding up to $260k over the life of the EBA 3 years.
This EBA is extremely good for company, lots of celebrations there, it is also good for existing VA pilots because they accepted such crap conditions in the 1st place (any pay rise would keep them happy), but it stuffs any chance the VB pilots have of getting fair pay for the A330 (yet to be included in the EBA), and does not leave much room for 737 payrises. The companies comeback to any payrises will be something along the lines of "why pay you lot anymore than $X, when V Aus 777 pilots only get X amount?"
While certainly better than the contracts originally accepted, it is very short-sighted, and could shaft the majority of VB pilots.
So just for clarity, if a 737 captain transferred today, how many years would it take him to get to your starting salary?
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how many years would it take him to get to your starting salary?
bustard, of course not, but we are the same company remember, especially heading down the Group opportunity path. The EBA's effect each other so why not start with the best T&C's and negotiate up from there?
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The SFO's have been give a Command pay guarantee, in a separate signed letter to each individual, basically saying that the company expects all of us to have a Command within 5 years, and should that not happen - the Command pay is guaranteed as of June 2016.
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165 pilots able to vote, 38 offered command pay guarantee, 85% yes. Yeah that really made all the difference between a yes or no.
Dam it, I knew we should have approached the short haul guys to bankroll the difference over the next 6 months while we try again. Would have only cost about half a mil per month. Seems they have the best interest of the whole pilot group in mind all of a sudden, hope they can do the same for the pacbro crew as well.....
Dam it, I knew we should have approached the short haul guys to bankroll the difference over the next 6 months while we try again. Would have only cost about half a mil per month. Seems they have the best interest of the whole pilot group in mind all of a sudden, hope they can do the same for the pacbro crew as well.....
Where exactly is there a b scale? Isn't the definition of a b scale when new joiners will never reach the same salary as existing pilots? On this agreement you will eventually reach the same salary. Also on the domestic eba do new starters not receive the same pay as a 2 year FO? Your time frame for pay rises is hours on company jets, the V Oz is on based on experience on type.
Voz1, I've got a good idea - why don't you suggest we negotiate the future 737 T&C's with only PB pilots, or maybe E-jet drivers. That should get a good outcome.
seriously, it's a 3 year agreement. A new start (lets say SFO) will start on $124K and at the end of the agreement be on $135K. An existing SFO will start on $142K and finish on $156K. I know the V guys get a bit sensitive about it, but that is a b scale.
This is not a gripe against V Oz pilots - you were always going to vote this up, I mean look at the turd sandwich you signed up to in the first place. This is a gripe against the unions who have basically dropped the ball for the vast majority of their members.
seriously, it's a 3 year agreement. A new start (lets say SFO) will start on $124K and at the end of the agreement be on $135K. An existing SFO will start on $142K and finish on $156K. I know the V guys get a bit sensitive about it, but that is a b scale.
This is not a gripe against V Oz pilots - you were always going to vote this up, I mean look at the turd sandwich you signed up to in the first place. This is a gripe against the unions who have basically dropped the ball for the vast majority of their members.
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It's not a B scale you fools, if it were then new entry pilots would move up a different pay scale, it's exactly the same princiaple as the current short haul EBA, that the VB pilots voted YES to 3 years ago. The only difference is VA pay up on years of service not time on company A/C
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Ok, lets call a spade a spade here,
The only actual B scale in VIRGIN is the Ejet payscale, which was voted up by 737 Pilots in return for better conditions on the 737. My advice is that VB addresses the steaming dog turd that they created with the Ejet salaries. Once that has been addressed and VB no longer have a B scale, we can have a closer look at creating a more consistent salary structure across the group at the next round of negotiations
If anyone cared to look past the salary scales and at the fine print, there are substantial gains on offer for VB via the credit system that has now been accepted by the company
The only actual B scale in VIRGIN is the Ejet payscale, which was voted up by 737 Pilots in return for better conditions on the 737. My advice is that VB addresses the steaming dog turd that they created with the Ejet salaries. Once that has been addressed and VB no longer have a B scale, we can have a closer look at creating a more consistent salary structure across the group at the next round of negotiations
If anyone cared to look past the salary scales and at the fine print, there are substantial gains on offer for VB via the credit system that has now been accepted by the company
Ok, lets call a spade a spade here
I'm sorry, I was of the understanding that a b scale was when someone starting today will get paid significantly less for doing the exact same job, than someone starting yesterday, and will receive significantly less for the duration of the agreement.
Not many seem to be able to get their head around the fact that we are all in the same company, and if you drop a steamer in the corner one of your colleagues is going stand in it, or possibly you'll end up standing in it yourself - this applies to 777 b scales (or whatever you want to call it), PB and e-jet.
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Growler
If you would care to stick your head outside and have a look at the wider environment you may observe most serious airlines have a tiered pay structure that recognises experience, unlike VB where a 10 year Captain gets the same as a 1st yr Captain. You may also notice that our new management have taken down the Big Top, turned off the Benny Hill music and are working hard to make the Group look more like an airline than an airborne circus. The VA EBA somewhat reflects this change in management approach. Keep in mind that if we were still under the old management we would have got nothing like what we have, and VB would have been fighting to maintain conditions rather than improve them.
The V salary has at least put in place a structure that recognises experience. Yes there is an argument that a 10 year VB Capt should be more than Level one at V, but by the same token, by transferring to V a VB Capt will have an opportunity to earn more than he will on a 737. It is also important to recognise that the issue of where VB pilots will slot in is an issue for VB pilots, and should be argued in the VB negotiations. Most likely it wont be addressed in this round because in the end there is unlikely to be many more VB Captains transferring once the deed runs out, mainly because ther aren't any more aircraft coming as far as we know. Any command vacancies are likely to be filled by VA F/O's.
The V EBA has also set the framework and expectation for the widwbody payscale, so it would seem logical that 330 pay will be a variation on the V payscale. If that looks like a B scale to you, compared to what 330 Captains currently get, then i gues we will need to disagree.
Take some time to consider what the VA EBA contains and how compnents of it can be used to improve the VB package and you should start seeing the glass as being half full rather than half empty.
At the end of the day, V is still a seperate entity to VB and therfore any perceived cap the VA EBA has on VB conditions is just that, perceived. The ball is now in your court to gomout and negotiate better conditions than VA, using the VA EBA as a springboard
If you would care to stick your head outside and have a look at the wider environment you may observe most serious airlines have a tiered pay structure that recognises experience, unlike VB where a 10 year Captain gets the same as a 1st yr Captain. You may also notice that our new management have taken down the Big Top, turned off the Benny Hill music and are working hard to make the Group look more like an airline than an airborne circus. The VA EBA somewhat reflects this change in management approach. Keep in mind that if we were still under the old management we would have got nothing like what we have, and VB would have been fighting to maintain conditions rather than improve them.
The V salary has at least put in place a structure that recognises experience. Yes there is an argument that a 10 year VB Capt should be more than Level one at V, but by the same token, by transferring to V a VB Capt will have an opportunity to earn more than he will on a 737. It is also important to recognise that the issue of where VB pilots will slot in is an issue for VB pilots, and should be argued in the VB negotiations. Most likely it wont be addressed in this round because in the end there is unlikely to be many more VB Captains transferring once the deed runs out, mainly because ther aren't any more aircraft coming as far as we know. Any command vacancies are likely to be filled by VA F/O's.
The V EBA has also set the framework and expectation for the widwbody payscale, so it would seem logical that 330 pay will be a variation on the V payscale. If that looks like a B scale to you, compared to what 330 Captains currently get, then i gues we will need to disagree.
Take some time to consider what the VA EBA contains and how compnents of it can be used to improve the VB package and you should start seeing the glass as being half full rather than half empty.
At the end of the day, V is still a seperate entity to VB and therfore any perceived cap the VA EBA has on VB conditions is just that, perceived. The ball is now in your court to gomout and negotiate better conditions than VA, using the VA EBA as a springboard
Last edited by Keith Nash; 24th Aug 2011 at 00:44.
Gee thanks for the observation on tiered pay Keith, thing is you are working in the same group of airlines as me.
With the VB EBA about to expire, I would expect that a 737 Captain would be hoping for a pay rise above the current $190K. Even at 3%, it comes out at about the same as the Level 1 777 CPT pay - not so hot. A 737 FO would (assuming 3% pay rise) would actually take a pay cut to move to the 777 as an FO.
Pretty sure 3-4 years Group Seniority won't buy you a 777 Command.
This is my issue - why didn't the AFAP/ VIPA negotiators use the VB EBA as a springboard to get VA to where it should be? At least it was a decent starting point.
Anyway, too much "us and them", I'm glad you improved the LH conditions, and I look forward improving the short haul conditions for all Virgin pilots.
With the VB EBA about to expire, I would expect that a 737 Captain would be hoping for a pay rise above the current $190K. Even at 3%, it comes out at about the same as the Level 1 777 CPT pay - not so hot. A 737 FO would (assuming 3% pay rise) would actually take a pay cut to move to the 777 as an FO.
Any command vacancies are likely to be filled by VA F/O's.
using the VA EBA as a springboard
Anyway, too much "us and them", I'm glad you improved the LH conditions, and I look forward improving the short haul conditions for all Virgin pilots.
Last edited by grrowler; 24th Aug 2011 at 03:10. Reason: to reflect Keith's edit