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Old 13th Jun 2011, 17:30   #21 (permalink)
 
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We had this discussion about ash when the Icelandic volcano blew up.

The facts of the matter are that turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes are very very expensive and they have a finite life that can be seriously shortened if they have to operate in contaminated air.

Comments regarding momentary inconvenience, attendance at football games, etc. are misplaced when one understands that the aircraft operator may face a bill for many hundreds of thousands of dollars if they miscalculate ash concentrations.

Furthermore, blades and vanes do not grow on trees, nor can you pick up spare engines at Bunnings. An aircraft can be out of service for months if the donks get cooked - then the traveling public will really have something to complain about.


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Old 14th Jun 2011, 06:10   #22 (permalink)
 
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Airborne Volcanic Object Identifier and Detector (AVOID)


This is NOT a wind up...maybe this might help in the future:


Easyjet Ash Detection System Flight Trials: Airport Int. News

Sorry if this has already been discussed in other threads.
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 06:33   #23 (permalink)
 
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HIALS, I flew thru some stuff that I did NOT see in PNG, until I suddenly had crazed windows, and two coughing donks. This was in a DC3, and I could land with my head out the window (or sort off) (very uncomfortable) expecting a serve from the engineers,instead they complimented me on getting the compressor blades shiny and clean! Just shows what it does.
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 08:26   #24 (permalink)
 
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Sunfish, no doubt about the cause and effect of ash damage. Agreed.

Why does this preclude QF flights operating ML-SY at say FL200, day operations only to remain visually clear of ash cloud?

If QF are concerned about NGVs etc are you saying VB, Emirates etc are not?
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 09:03   #25 (permalink)
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BA flew into the Ash cloud VERY CLOSE to it's ejection point and the amount and size of the ash was significant.

NOT the same as we are seeing above us ( or rather NOT seeing )
I happened to have a rostered flight into Halim Airport Jakarta, two days after the BA incident and had a good look at the state of that aircraft. We didn't have any experience in those days about the dangers of flying through volcanic dust but I was sure glad that I wasn't operating on that flight. Nobody saw it either before they flew into it.
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 10:23   #26 (permalink)
 
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Yes so what's your point?

1/ it was dark
2/ no one was monitoring the eruption for Aviation and could warn them
3/ they flew very close by an erupting Volcano.

2011 and things are a little different now.

You cannot equate the two situations.
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 20:25   #27 (permalink)
 
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Icarus, you're rather assuming there's a nicely defined & visible cloud to remain clear of.
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 20:42   #28 (permalink)
 
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So I know of one operator that has placed "abradable strips" along leading edges and above windscreens of it's aircraft. These will supposedly pick up any evidence of abrasive particles in the air. So it's only going to tell you what you've already flown through, but at least you can stop flying before (hopefully) any further damage is done.
Simple solution? Maybe. Perhaps Qantas group should look at something similar. Then at least they will have some evidence to justify not flying. Plus surely other operators will co-operate with each other and share information. We aren't that cut-throat yet to deliberately mislead the opposition over a flight safety issue are we?
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Old 14th Jun 2011, 23:20   #29 (permalink)
 
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I support conservatism in these matters. I am sure the risk in this case is small but not zero.
Qantas does not need another reason to give it another PR nightmare.Neither do Tiger.
If you dont fly into ash clouds you dont get the damage to hardware, bottom line or bad press. Just imagine an engine going tits up (no matter the reason) on the way to Melbourne or Adelaide. Damned if you do or dont. At least by not flying risk is diminished.
Airlines make their own calls. It is their business.
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Old 15th Jun 2011, 00:38   #30 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps is a cost thing as well. Qantas group does not want the extra cost to burn extra fuel flying below or around the ash cloud.

Or they want to be seen as taking the 'moral high-ground'

each to their own
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Old 15th Jun 2011, 01:00   #31 (permalink)
 
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Or perhaps it is that QANTAS management are so shit scared of their recent engine reliability record, that they cannot afford to run the risk of another failure at this time, because regardless of the cause, it would be percieved to be as a result of their decision to fly at a time of known risk.

Only way to eliminate the possibility of having such a decision sheeted home to them. Cancel all flights. To be sure to be sure.

SS
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Old 15th Jun 2011, 02:47   #32 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
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Quote:
in a DC3
Quote:
compressor blades
?????...................
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Old 15th Jun 2011, 03:57   #33 (permalink)
 
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  • Siseman, you are correct, my apologies, that particular time according to my log was a Vicount. The DC3 incident did take place but the engineers were unfazed, and certainly more unfazed than I was. the windows required replacing, the donks survived. As you get older...............................................!
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 03:19   #34 (permalink)
 
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Why does this preclude QF flights operating ML-SY at say FL200, day operations only to remain visually clear of ash cloud?
I am aware of two recent occurrences on the NZ south island where light aircraft flew into ash in areas that were not reported on Sigmets. In both cases there was a noticeable build up ash on the aircraft. In both cases it was around 12,000ft. The ash was described as 'sparkling' by observers after landing. The pilots reported that it was not visible in the air, and only noticed a build up on the aircraft.

I guess everyone can make their own calls. But I could fully understand an airline not wanting that in their new engines.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 05:31   #35 (permalink)
 
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Dc 3 technically has compressor blades. It's supercharged ain't it? Ergo, it has a compressor.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 08:39   #36 (permalink)
 
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As you know, Qantas has responded to the dispersal of volcanic ash from the Mt Puyehue Cordon Caulle volcano in Chile by cancelling or rerouting a number of flights.

As a valued Frequent Flyer I want to let you know why we have made these decisions when other carriers, including Virgin and Air New Zealand, have continued to operate.

Qantas does not take the decision to cancel flights lightly. We understand that this causes significant disruptions for all our customers. We regret the inconvenience and we appreciate your patience. But safety is our first priority and we will never fly unless we are fully satisfied that it is safe to do so.

Volcanic ash cloud poses a significant threat to aircraft. It can enter an engine, turn into molten glass as a result of the high temperatures and potentially cause the engine to fail. Other risks include windscreens becoming opaque, contamination of cabin air and hydraulic systems and erosion of aircraft parts.

Our decision not to fly in the presence of volcanic ash is based on assessments by our Critical Operational Event Group, with advice from the Bureau of Meteorology and in consultation with the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (VAAC) in Darwin.

Unlike the meteorological authorities in Europe, Australia's VAAC does not have the ability to calculate ash density so we are unable to access definitive measurements. Our policy is not to fly into areas where the concentration of volcanic ash is unknown. Without certainty about the density of the ash, we do not consider it safe to fly.

Again, we sincerely regret the inconvenience caused by these weather conditions.

We will continue to resume services to affected ports as soon as it is operationally appropriate to do so. You can find the latest flight updates on our Flight Status page.

Our Chief Pilot Captain Peter Wilson and Head of Integrated Operations Centre Alan Milne are expert members of the Qantas Critical Operational Event Group. You can watch a video of Peter and Alan discussing the rationale behind the Qantas decision to cancel or reroute some flights on Qantas' YouTube channel.

Alan Joyce
Qantas Chief Executive Office
r
video.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 09:28   #37 (permalink)
 
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TG... You might also want to check you spelling of Viscount!!
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 10:51   #38 (permalink)
 
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A appropriate name for you Nitpicker. You must be hell to live with.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 14:28   #39 (permalink)
 
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Nitpicker might want to check his spelling of your!

I'm surprised you didn't see anyone at the IOC with the Internet on one of their screens in the video, or with open newspapers sprawled across their desk. Not very lifelike at all.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 01:19   #40 (permalink)
 
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It was a joke TG, settle petal!!

I see your Viscount sitting at the YMMB air museum looking a bit worse for wear....

Chill
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