Merged: Boeing Revises 787 First Flight and Delivery Plans- Again
Jaba, I'd say that your sources are better placed than mine. I just pass on what is coming out of an aviation media web site - as with any media outlet, they just regurgitate management spin.
TBM, I totally agree. The "A" model aircraft always have faults which are designed out of later aircraft along with resolving weight issues. I'm told that QF ordered the A380 before SQ and consequently could have had the first aircraft into service. As QF normally hold onto an aircraft for in excess of 20 years, they didn't want to take delivery of an overweight aircraft and pay an excessive fuel penalty for that many years, so they arranged the delivery slots with the first aircraft being MSN14. SQ can write their aircraft off in as few as 3 years so that if their early aircraft deliveries are overweight, they can dispose of them relatively quickly. QF's fourth A380 (MSN26, due to be delivered May09) is the first of the "Wave 2" aircraft which are much more standarised in the production processes. The early "Wave 1" aircraft are quite individual wrt wiring/plumbing which does cause some issues for the engineers who have to maintain them.
Apologies for thread drift.
TBM, I totally agree. The "A" model aircraft always have faults which are designed out of later aircraft along with resolving weight issues. I'm told that QF ordered the A380 before SQ and consequently could have had the first aircraft into service. As QF normally hold onto an aircraft for in excess of 20 years, they didn't want to take delivery of an overweight aircraft and pay an excessive fuel penalty for that many years, so they arranged the delivery slots with the first aircraft being MSN14. SQ can write their aircraft off in as few as 3 years so that if their early aircraft deliveries are overweight, they can dispose of them relatively quickly. QF's fourth A380 (MSN26, due to be delivered May09) is the first of the "Wave 2" aircraft which are much more standarised in the production processes. The early "Wave 1" aircraft are quite individual wrt wiring/plumbing which does cause some issues for the engineers who have to maintain them.
Apologies for thread drift.
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was this also inside info
Jabawocky,
There was some fierce stuff in the second comment to this item in Plane Talking which sounds like inside info.
Qantas bites tongue over its Dreamliner nightmare - Plane Talking
However in the next item Sandilands goes on to ask if that comment might have been from Captain X who I've seen pop up and get flamed on Airliners.net
Then today he makes a reference to heat retention by composites in the undercarriage not being factored in.
Do the comments by Markus 45 about what has been going wrong stack up?
I want to fly on a Dreamliner but you have to wonder how it could take so long from building it to flying it.
There was some fierce stuff in the second comment to this item in Plane Talking which sounds like inside info.
Qantas bites tongue over its Dreamliner nightmare - Plane Talking
However in the next item Sandilands goes on to ask if that comment might have been from Captain X who I've seen pop up and get flamed on Airliners.net
Then today he makes a reference to heat retention by composites in the undercarriage not being factored in.
Do the comments by Markus 45 about what has been going wrong stack up?
I want to fly on a Dreamliner but you have to wonder how it could take so long from building it to flying it.
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GB
My source is not on the 787 program, but walks past it literally everyday.........close enough lets say!
Denabol
As for the comments in post no.2 there well I know some of those comments are true, however I can not be sure of the comments about the Italians. Having said that, I deal with some Italian companies.......and.....he may be right there too!
The first flight is due in April, and is likely to happen, I think towards the end of the month. I am sure they will be in the media then with plenty of hype.
I do believe they will make it work, its just a quantum leap from making tin planes so its a lot of learning the hard way. I can not remember the hours quoted but the man hours at Everett are remarkably low for assembly when it gets up to production. However they have spent their million man hour so far and nothing has flown yet so it will need to be pretty slick to build in order to win back all that.
J
My source is not on the 787 program, but walks past it literally everyday.........close enough lets say!
Denabol
As for the comments in post no.2 there well I know some of those comments are true, however I can not be sure of the comments about the Italians. Having said that, I deal with some Italian companies.......and.....he may be right there too!
The first flight is due in April, and is likely to happen, I think towards the end of the month. I am sure they will be in the media then with plenty of hype.
I do believe they will make it work, its just a quantum leap from making tin planes so its a lot of learning the hard way. I can not remember the hours quoted but the man hours at Everett are remarkably low for assembly when it gets up to production. However they have spent their million man hour so far and nothing has flown yet so it will need to be pretty slick to build in order to win back all that.
J
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787 protoype is out of paint shed back on flight line
Jabawocky,
I've been following Flightblogger for ages on the 787. It reported a short while ago that the first of them is back out of paint shop and to do the 'gauntlet' tests.
The Road to 787 First Flight - March 24 - Out of the paintshop - FlightBlogger - Aviation News, Commentary and Analysis
In recent weeks either Ostrower on this blog or maybe someone else close to the action predicted the first flight could be back as far as the last two days of June.
Sounds like this might happen sooner.
I've been following Flightblogger for ages on the 787. It reported a short while ago that the first of them is back out of paint shop and to do the 'gauntlet' tests.
The Road to 787 First Flight - March 24 - Out of the paintshop - FlightBlogger - Aviation News, Commentary and Analysis
In recent weeks either Ostrower on this blog or maybe someone else close to the action predicted the first flight could be back as far as the last two days of June.
Sounds like this might happen sooner.
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Mate, you never know what will actually happen....April, May...June.....who knows! I bet they never expected fuel cells to emit large cracking noises 
or for the leaking at a greater rate than they could pump in the fuse tests either.
I am sure it will all happen.......just have to be patient!
J
or for the leaking at a greater rate than they could pump in the fuse tests either.I am sure it will all happen.......just have to be patient!
J
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Moves to Flight Line for Testing
(Everett, Wash., May 3, 2009) -- The Boeing [NYSE: BA] 787 Dreamliner that will fly later this quarter has moved to the flight line. Fuel testing - the first in the next phase of extensive checks the airplane must undergo - will begin in the next few days.
"We are making great progress, and moving ever-closer to first flight," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 Dreamliner program.
In recent weeks, the 787 (designated ZA001) completed a rigorous series of tests including build verification tests, structures and systems integration tests, landing gear swings and factory gauntlet, which is the full simulation of the first flight using the actual airplane. With Chief Pilot Mike Carriker at the controls, the simulation tested all flight controls, hardware and software. The simulation also included manual and automatic landings and an extensive suite of subsequent ground tests.
"These results give us confidence in our ability to move into further gauntlet testing using either ground power or the airplane's engines or auxiliary power unit. This is a significant milestone on the path to first flight," Fancher said.
All structural tests required on the static airframe prior to first flight also are complete. The final test occurred April 21 when the wing and trailing edges were subjected to their limit load - the highest loads expected to be seen in service. The load is about the same as the airplane experiencing 2.5 times the force of gravity.
"We continue to analyze the data, but the initial results are positive," Fancher said. On April 13, the leading edge of the wing was subjected to its limit load while the rest of the airplane was subjected to loads expected at cruise. And in September 2008, the "high blow" high-pressure test was completed on the static airframe. During that test, the airframe reached an internal pressure of 150 percent of the maximum levels expected to be seen in service - 14.9 lbs. per square inch (1.05 kilograms per centimeter) gauge (psig).
Ground vibration testing, which measures the airplane's response to flutter, also concluded on the second flight-test airplane, designated ZA002, at the end of this week. All the necessary structural tests required prior to first flight now are complete.
Now on the flight line, ZA001 will undergo additional airplane power and systems tests as well as engine runs. After completing final systems checks and high-speed taxi tests, the airplane will be ready for first flight, which is on schedule for later this quarter.
The 787 Dreamliner has orders for 886 airplanes from 57 customers.
Company Center : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
Aircraft that have the right look, fly well (unlike the Dugong).
Boeing Completes 787 Intermediate Gauntlet Testing
(Everett, Wash., June 8, 2009) -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) has completed the intermediate gauntlet phase of testing on the first 787 Dreamliner.
During the testing, pilots and engineers simulated multiple scenarios using all airplane systems as if the aircraft were in flight, including power, avionics and flight controls. Test scenarios ranged from standard flights to single and multiple systems failures during flights.
Intermediate gauntlet testing included about one week's worth of operations on the airplane and hundreds of discrete test conditions.
"The team has done an incredible job supporting an exhaustive test regimen," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "I couldn't be more proud.
"We will continue to take a hard look at the results, make adjustments and finish up our testing so we can get to first flight."
Company Center : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
2nd Boeing 787 Dreamliner Moves to Flight Line
(Everett, Wash., June 15, 2009) -- The second Boeing (NYSE: BA) 787 Dreamliner has moved to the flight line to begin fuel testing. This is the second of six 787s being used in the all-new airplane's flight-test program.
"Momentum continues to build with each milestone achieved," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 Dreamliner program.
Each of the six flight-test airplanes will be used for a specific set of tests during the flight-test program. This airplane, designated ZA002, will focus on systems performance. Like its predecessor, ZA001, this airplane has successfully completed a rigorous series of tests while still in the factory. Fuel testing began immediately upon the airplane entering the fuel dock.
ZA002 features the livery of the Dreamliner's launch customer, ANA (All Nippon Airways) of Japan.
"ANA will be the first to fly the 787 Dreamliner in commercial service," Fancher noted. "We are honored to fly in ANA livery throughout the flight-test program as a tribute to our partnership in bringing this all-new airplane to market."
Company Center : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
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Latest NEWS FYI
PARIS AIR SHOW: Final countdown begins for 787's maiden flight By Jon Ostrower
Boeing has targeted 20 June for its formal flight readiness review on the 787 Dreamliner. The review will assess the preparations for the first flight of the 787, expected by the end of this month.
Pat Shanahan, Boeing vice-president and general manager of airplane programmes, outlined the final path to first flight, further affirming his company's commitment to flying by the close of June.
Following the readiness review, prototype ZA001 will move into final gauntlet testing, which is believed to be scheduled for two days, according to 787 programme sources.
Shanahan cites the "hour-by-hour" flight-test plan that dictates the 787's schedule. The gauntlet will put the first 787 through a final series of closed loop tests that will continue to validate the functionality and reliability of aircraft systems.
Shanahan says the aircraft will then move into low- and high-speed taxi tests and will "go fly" some time before the clock strikes midnight on 30 June.
From Flightglobal daily News
TH
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From Aviation International News today
Qatar could scrap 787 orders as Al Baker berates Boeing
By: Stephen Pope
June 17, 2009
Qatar Airways CEO Akbar Al Baker is threatening to pull the plug on a contract for up to 60 Boeing 787s due to what appear to be serious objections to the way the long-delayed program is being handled.
“Unfortunately, Boeing is not run by commercial people,” Al Baker told a group of journalists here yesterday afternoon. “Boeing is run by bean counters and lawyers. We have some serious issues with them, and if they do not play ball with us they will be in for a serious surprise.”
Al Baker acknowledged that the issues he spoke of are related to Qatar’s order for the 787. “They’re not dealing with this in a professional manner,” he said. Qatar has an order for 60 Boeing 787s, 30 of them firm and 30 options. The first are due for delivery to the Doha airline in 2011.
Al Baker declined to be more specific about the issues Qatar has with Boeing, but because he had not mentioned them publicly before yesterday it seemed to indicate that relations between the companies may have become strained quite recently, perhaps even here at the show. Qatar at the last moment canceled a press conference here yesterday, which was widely thought to have been a new order announcement. There had been indications that this could be rescheduled for today, but this now seems to be in doubt.
The Qatar chief executive was asked specifically whether the airline could walk away from its 787 order if the problems being encountered with Boeing aren’t resolved. “Yes, we can always walk away from a deal if the delays are unacceptable,” he said.
The Boeing 787 has been dogged by setbacks related to difficulties in managing the supply chain, changes to the design, weight increases and supplier-related issues. As a result, the airplane is almost two years late. First flight is expected later this month, with entry into service now targeted for 2010.
Asked about the Qatar CEO’s comments, a Boeing spokesman said the company does not publicly discuss customer-related issues.
Asked whether Boeing’s idea to study a new wing for the 777 would entice Qatar to consider placing an order with Boeing, Al Baker said flatly that such a move comes “too late” to have an impact on Qatar’s choices for how to expand its mainline fleet. The airline has placed an order for 80 Airbus A350XWBs and yesterday strengthened its relationship with the European airframe builder with a firm order for 24 A320-family airliners.
Qatar could scrap 787 orders as Al Baker berates Boeing
By: Stephen Pope
June 17, 2009
Qatar Airways CEO Akbar Al Baker is threatening to pull the plug on a contract for up to 60 Boeing 787s due to what appear to be serious objections to the way the long-delayed program is being handled.
“Unfortunately, Boeing is not run by commercial people,” Al Baker told a group of journalists here yesterday afternoon. “Boeing is run by bean counters and lawyers. We have some serious issues with them, and if they do not play ball with us they will be in for a serious surprise.”
Al Baker acknowledged that the issues he spoke of are related to Qatar’s order for the 787. “They’re not dealing with this in a professional manner,” he said. Qatar has an order for 60 Boeing 787s, 30 of them firm and 30 options. The first are due for delivery to the Doha airline in 2011.
Al Baker declined to be more specific about the issues Qatar has with Boeing, but because he had not mentioned them publicly before yesterday it seemed to indicate that relations between the companies may have become strained quite recently, perhaps even here at the show. Qatar at the last moment canceled a press conference here yesterday, which was widely thought to have been a new order announcement. There had been indications that this could be rescheduled for today, but this now seems to be in doubt.
The Qatar chief executive was asked specifically whether the airline could walk away from its 787 order if the problems being encountered with Boeing aren’t resolved. “Yes, we can always walk away from a deal if the delays are unacceptable,” he said.
The Boeing 787 has been dogged by setbacks related to difficulties in managing the supply chain, changes to the design, weight increases and supplier-related issues. As a result, the airplane is almost two years late. First flight is expected later this month, with entry into service now targeted for 2010.
Asked about the Qatar CEO’s comments, a Boeing spokesman said the company does not publicly discuss customer-related issues.
Asked whether Boeing’s idea to study a new wing for the 777 would entice Qatar to consider placing an order with Boeing, Al Baker said flatly that such a move comes “too late” to have an impact on Qatar’s choices for how to expand its mainline fleet. The airline has placed an order for 80 Airbus A350XWBs and yesterday strengthened its relationship with the European airframe builder with a firm order for 24 A320-family airliners.
Geez Joker 10..........
That's not very nice!! It's funny though! 
Still, when the 'Hyundai of the skies' is the preferred option of the Gulf's rapidly-becoming best-known (and least-liked) 'bogan' Akbar Al-Baker at Qatar Airways, then I guess it's not a bad description!
You gotta give the 'Hyundai of the skies' credit though! It's provided evidence that it can produce some REALLY REALLY durable models, as has been proved time and time again from some of the the severe in-service operational 'torture tests' that some of those poor airframes have been put through over the past few years by some Gulf-based operators!
Maybe Volkswagen, or perhaps Hummer, or even D9 bulldozer of the skies is more appropriate? After all durability seems to be the key issue here!
[the] Hyundai of the skies
Still, when the 'Hyundai of the skies' is the preferred option of the Gulf's rapidly-becoming best-known (and least-liked) 'bogan' Akbar Al-Baker at Qatar Airways, then I guess it's not a bad description!
You gotta give the 'Hyundai of the skies' credit though! It's provided evidence that it can produce some REALLY REALLY durable models, as has been proved time and time again from some of the the severe in-service operational 'torture tests' that some of those poor airframes have been put through over the past few years by some Gulf-based operators!
Maybe Volkswagen, or perhaps Hummer, or even D9 bulldozer of the skies is more appropriate? After all durability seems to be the key issue here!
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Dunno mate, I reckon there's at least one A330 crew who would love to be here to debate the durability issue........
Anyhow, the 20k 737 700 LGW has the hyundai mantle around here.........
Anyhow, the 20k 737 700 LGW has the hyundai mantle around here.........
porch monkey..........
Dunno about that either.........'mate'. Ready-fire-aim perhaps on your part?
If you're referring to the latest A330 disaster then here's a hint...........have another look at my post. You may notice after a bit of the good old 'RTFQ' that I actually referred to the in-service durability-testing of the so-called Hyundais:
No prizes for guessing where you work though with the type/model you refer to!
Dunno about that either.........'mate'. Ready-fire-aim perhaps on your part?
If you're referring to the latest A330 disaster then here's a hint...........have another look at my post. You may notice after a bit of the good old 'RTFQ' that I actually referred to the in-service durability-testing of the so-called Hyundais:
...by some Gulf-based operators!
No prizes for guessing where you work though with the type/model you refer to!
HotDog......
Sadly, GM Hummer ain't no more.............
Source: LEITNER: Hummer sale to China - Washington Times
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you ex sandpit..............777 perhaps?
Sadly, GM Hummer ain't no more.............
the Hummer brand and all its manufacturing facilities and know-how will be sold to Communist China
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you ex sandpit..............777 perhaps?
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Back to the 787, my inside source has been finding it hard to get any news, let alone reliable.....especially so as the last few proposed dates came and went with nothing!
Its so tight lipped over there, I doubt anyone knows!
Have asked the question.....see what the morning brings!
Its so tight lipped over there, I doubt anyone knows!
Have asked the question.....see what the morning brings!
