ITCZ

In an excellent post on why the timing is right for industrial action, Ochre Insider made a point about seniority.

Seniority will always stifle the natural operation of the market. The requirement for new joiners or returnees to start at the bottom effectively impinges on horizontal movement between major airlines. As such, even in times of pilot shortage, salaries are prevented from rising in the enormous amounts that sometimes occur in other industries (ie mining, IT in the 90's, etc) because employers do not have to increase salaries to retain skilled labour."

This struck a chord with me... I have benefitted by, and defended, the seniority system, but I have wondered if for all its benefits, it does us one big disservice -- stop us from 'walking' when other professionals would. I said so in a long thread on the "Pilot Shortage is Coming"

In the old days there was TAA, Ansett ANA and Qantas. Seniority worked then. Three big companies, and if you met the standard, jobs for life.

Where are the 'jet jobs' now? Qantas, Australian, Virgin, Jetstar, Alliance, Skywest, NJS, SkyAirWorld, Ozjet....

All of those will put pressure on their pilots. You need the pilots to stand firm, or be ready to leave for better jobs. And they have to be able to have a crack at a job at the same income level.

That is why command pay is going down. A possible 10% pay reduction beats a certain 40% pay reduction when it is your job that is threatened.

Can you imagine a top surgeon in a NSW hospital going back to being a sh!t-kicker medical officer just to make a move to QLD?

The airline industry has reorganised. The employment laws have changed. The 'job for life' went years ago.

Are we pilots ready to recognise that some of our inherited attitudes that we hold onto so dearly, are actually part of the problem?

I think we need to ask the question - is it time to ditch seniority?

To some pilots saying that is worse than sh!tting on a church altar. But it is a serious question.

A number of posters on that thread rebutted any need to scrap seniority. Think of the effect on rostering, bidding, opportunity to qualify, etc, they said.

I think it is possible though, to retain seniority in your work contract for those things, but to open up the employment market by allowing direct entry commands.

DEC as a last resort has done us more harm than good, IMHO.

I think we all need to recognise that there is a shortage, and that seniority hampers 'horizontal movement' between companies, and has resulted in us not earning the money we otherwise could be. Including FO's!

Any thoughts?

regitaekilthgiwt

And what is the solution to no seniority?

What is a different system that would work? What’s to stop someone then going to the company and saying: "I'm tired of being an SO ill be a Captain/FO for $10k less than anyone else is doing it." (just to jump the 15/5year que)

We all know pilots are our own worst enemies and will do anything to get to the top. I think attitudes such as this stink but that is the reality of the situation.

It could be time to ditch seniority but what is a better system in place so that everybody doesn't undercut everybody and salaries can actually rise...

pakeha-boy

...Quote...."Are we pilots ready to recognise that some of our inherited attitudes that we hold onto so dearly, are actually part of the problem?


ITCZ.... Great post,....and good questions,but overall,with the problems that we have in trying to overhaul the sysytem we love to hate(depending on your seniority).....the good that comes with this system (in the long run) far outways the bad.....

I,m in my 28th yr of flying....and finally seeing the rewards...to try and convince me at this stage to change the system that Ive put so much into will get you a kick in the go-nads.....and I think youll find that a commom attitude with jokers that have been in the system for donks......to the young fellas,it sucks......I dont make the rules just follow them.........seniority-.......is everything..... PB

freddyKrueger

What is required is an "industry wide" seniority system. The only way that is going to happen when pilots can be trusted not to undercut each other.
How do we trust each other? By having a financial stake in the ownership of our own crewing company, increasing the incentive to remain knowing that career development will be on a 'fair' basis, rather that trading conditions for promotion.
Entry for new industry joiners is the easy part. Existing crew transitioning to any new arrangement is a much more complex problem, though not insoluble.
This could provide an answer to the "race to the bottom" mentality. Once a critical mass is obtained, pilots will be begging to join, reinforcing its strengths.
Much work to be done, a radical change perhaps, but worth thinking about.

pakeha-boy

Quote...."The only way that is going to happen when pilots can be trusted not to undercut each other..."

Freddy mate....sweet post,and the idea of "National list" has been debated for many years...... but the above comment has me rolling in donky-doo,and a couple of tears to boot......pilots being trusted....pilots not undercutting each other..............what a concept!!!

freddyKrueger

pakeha-boy, I'm not sure we're on the same page...
I know as well as anyone that pilots won't trust each other when its every man (or woman) for themselves.
The question is how can remove this 'every man for himself' mentality? By being an owner of a contract crewing Co, as well as a contractor to that company, and that company having a significant market share globally. Income for crew would be generated from both the contract pay AND crewing Co profit, the greater the profitability of the crewing Co, the more incentive to join & stay.
All I see are doctors, lawyers & accountants, who are just as ruthlessly ambitious & egotistical as any pilot, yet they are able to organise into mutually beneficial partnerships & not undercut each other.
This scheme fully recognises (in fact requires) the human foibles involved, refocuses them for our benefit, not the airlines.

pakeha-boy

Freddy mate...we are on the same page,and I would agree with most of your points...and if one had the ability to put in place and practice what you suggest then I would agree the concept would most probably work...........


My thoughts are more probably jaded because of the years spent in aviation and some of the scumbag outfits Ive flown for.....but I truly believe most of it has nothing to do with pilots.......it has do with the mgts than run these outfits....we are just puppets,nothing more...nothing less

and what makes it so difficult for your plan to be effective is how volitile this industry is......mate!!I,m on your side for sure

billyt

Of interest is this old thread from 6 years ago.........


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4128

ShockWave

I have worked in both a very strictly structured seniority system and an alternative for equal amounts of time over the last 20 years or so. Some people will win and some will get screwed in both systems as the dynamics of the industry dictate.

The strict (absolutely everything done by seniority) system only works for the majority of employees if many conditions are satisfied.
Some...
1. You all join at around the same age.
2. The company continues to operate at the same level or expands at a continuous rate.
3. The pay structures within the company and work requirements / rostering within fleets are evenly balanced.

If we examine the above three:
1. May deter older applicants, if they come they will never become senior enough to earn the bigger salary, get the pick of leave, good trips, good aircraft and consequently will spend their career earning considerably less and have a much sh_ttier life style than others doing the same job in the same company.

2. Very few companies expand continuously in this industry, so even the youngest pilots can get screwed if they join at the end of an expansion phase. They will get stuck with the low pay and crap flying and leave for however long it takes for the expansion to re-occur. Then it will all depend on when it starts and stops, but either way they will always earn less money for longer and put up with a poorer set of conditions than their mates who got in at the beginning of the cycle (maybe just a few months earlier). The old saying of "one day it will all be yours at the top of the list", simply does not hold true for most of the employees.

3. If you have different pay for different aircraft you can get stuck earning less money for a long time. Until you can bid to change aircraft type or get promoted you are stuck unfairly. This then causes a lot of cross training between fleets at great expense and actually decreases the ability of the company to react quickly to changing market requirements. This in turn slows down your chance of escaping.

Some of you lucky guys out there will find it hard to believe the above or refuse to listen to your mates complaints because obviously you deserve everything you get. I am not going to argue that point.
The point I make is that everyone has they right to the same job satisfaction and income potential while working for the same company doing the same job. Strict seniority does not provide this and it's methods of application can actually make the inequities much worse.

There are alternatives that help address some of the above. Implementing them into existing seniority systems is the biggest problem though. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor has proved to be an insurmountable problem (unless your name is Robin Hood or you work for the Tax department) within established airlines and airlines don't see the need for change. Particularly if they think you will stick around because of the carrot of seniority.

The system I work under now is not perfect but it is fairer to all in general.

Fleet pay.
Rotating bidding system. (Each fleet and rank divided by five and mixed up, so that the senior guys are senior only within their group which changes position each month. Even the most junior guy within his rank and fleet gets to be within the top 20% one out of 5 months.) The guys in the top 20% of overall seniority(including myself) get to share the crap flying every now and again.
Leave also gets sorted more equitably, if you got your school summer holiday leave this year, you may not get it next year. The guy at the bottom who has not had his leave choices granted last year or this will get it next year. etc

In my view the above goes a long way to fixing the problems with stricter seniority systems.
Problems with my current system:

No bidding between fleets unless they need you there ie. at their discretion.
So if one fleet expands significantly faster than the other, guys will get promoted out of seniority unless transition upgrades are allowed within your company.

If your aircraft is not as shiny as the others.... bad luck.

If your aircraft does not fly to your favorite destination... bad luck, go there on Holiday.

In my experience I have found the later system much more enjoyable overall. Less complaints, angst and envy among colleagues and a better lifestyle for the majority. The idea of not having to put up with twenty years of crap to enjoy my last few years of flying appeals to me.