QF shock horror A330 outrage
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QF shock horror A330 outrage
It’s hard to get the attention of senior QF pilots on many issues but one has galvanised them into some serious navel gazing. A330 seniority.
If all goes to plan these affected LH Q list pilots will soon find themselves well and truly done over by the 89 opportunists from shorthaul. Blokes from LH with donkeys years in the company may suddenly just find themselves relatively junior to these undesirables. You may even find that the foreign SH blow ins add insult to injury by being senior to some QF LH pilots.
This is altogether a most unsatisfactory possibility and could even be classified as a shock horror outrage.
But what to do ?
Squealing on qrewroom wont do too much. Sadly, the time to sort these blokes out was back many years ago and that opportunity was lost. They are seasoned street fighters now, unconcerned with how they are perceived and will go to any lengths to advance themselves at the expense of others. Just like the good old days!
I suppose you can’t blame them. After all, they are just doing what comes naturally !
If all goes to plan these affected LH Q list pilots will soon find themselves well and truly done over by the 89 opportunists from shorthaul. Blokes from LH with donkeys years in the company may suddenly just find themselves relatively junior to these undesirables. You may even find that the foreign SH blow ins add insult to injury by being senior to some QF LH pilots.
This is altogether a most unsatisfactory possibility and could even be classified as a shock horror outrage.
But what to do ?
Squealing on qrewroom wont do too much. Sadly, the time to sort these blokes out was back many years ago and that opportunity was lost. They are seasoned street fighters now, unconcerned with how they are perceived and will go to any lengths to advance themselves at the expense of others. Just like the good old days!
I suppose you can’t blame them. After all, they are just doing what comes naturally !
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For those of us not on the inside could someone please post some details.
I thought that when Qantas took over (saved) Australian the SH crew effectively went to the bottom of the LH list.
I suppose that QF management would like to see the end of seniority as applied to aircraft endorsements. Would save a lot of money!
I thought that when Qantas took over (saved) Australian the SH crew effectively went to the bottom of the LH list.
I suppose that QF management would like to see the end of seniority as applied to aircraft endorsements. Would save a lot of money!
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justanoldboy,
The problem has arisen because the A330 wasn't around in 1992. It is a new type and originally started doing some SH flying.
Now it is primarily LH the SH blokes want to maintain their bidding status and use the vagaries of the agreement to shoehorn their way to the front of the queue....or as close to it as they can spiv it.
It gets really interesting if the 744 starts to go to the scrapheap. 744 blokes, now sitting fat dumb and happy that they have finally "made it" may find themselves assigned to the A330. Changing to a bus at this stage of career may not be a real attractive proposition to some. Being junior to an opportunist would make it very unpalatable indeed! Salt to the wound so to speak.
If the SH proposal to nuke the LH blokes gets up then it could get very frosty in the crewroom. Not that it would worry them.
The problem has arisen because the A330 wasn't around in 1992. It is a new type and originally started doing some SH flying.
Now it is primarily LH the SH blokes want to maintain their bidding status and use the vagaries of the agreement to shoehorn their way to the front of the queue....or as close to it as they can spiv it.
It gets really interesting if the 744 starts to go to the scrapheap. 744 blokes, now sitting fat dumb and happy that they have finally "made it" may find themselves assigned to the A330. Changing to a bus at this stage of career may not be a real attractive proposition to some. Being junior to an opportunist would make it very unpalatable indeed! Salt to the wound so to speak.
If the SH proposal to nuke the LH blokes gets up then it could get very frosty in the crewroom. Not that it would worry them.
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History ALWAYS repeats. ALWAYS. As Blue Belly so eloquently said, but mate, add the B. No point calling them sca. Scat maybe, but not sca 
I once heard someone quip that scab actually was an anogram: Self-Concerned Abdicating Bastard. Kinda rings true.
The time to stop the rot was indeed "back then", but unfortunately the "support" from Qantas at the time (89 and immediately there after) was NOT there, except for a distinct few.
I cannot give any advice with what to do with undesireable pond scum like these - they don't care, and never will, so long as they can have their cake, and eat it as well. They believe they are OWED it because of their loyalty to their airline, especially during the "hard times" of 89 and beyond. Anyone got a tissue? Or a real small violin?
I think it is time that Qantas MAINLINE had the gumption to dig the heals in, and force the frog crap back to the bottom of the cesspool.
Qantas mainline, you have run out of toilet paper, and now you WILL have **** on your hands. Just make sure to wipe it all off, and flush. I am afraid you are S.O.O.L!
I once heard someone quip that scab actually was an anogram: Self-Concerned Abdicating Bastard. Kinda rings true.
The time to stop the rot was indeed "back then", but unfortunately the "support" from Qantas at the time (89 and immediately there after) was NOT there, except for a distinct few.
I cannot give any advice with what to do with undesireable pond scum like these - they don't care, and never will, so long as they can have their cake, and eat it as well. They believe they are OWED it because of their loyalty to their airline, especially during the "hard times" of 89 and beyond. Anyone got a tissue? Or a real small violin?
I think it is time that Qantas MAINLINE had the gumption to dig the heals in, and force the frog crap back to the bottom of the cesspool.
Qantas mainline, you have run out of toilet paper, and now you WILL have **** on your hands. Just make sure to wipe it all off, and flush. I am afraid you are S.O.O.L!
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Gee, there was another airline involved in 89 ???
From what I have read on this site, surely only Ansett pilots were involved. Hasn't been any mention of Australian Airlines for years, .......until now. Why ?
Aaahhh!!! It now effects those precious gods of aviation QF.
The "creme de la creme" of aviation ,those who were "hollier than thou" in 89 and supposedly stayed out of it. For the good, or because they saw it as more beneficial to them? The chickens have come home to roost!
What ever is happening in your company stems from the character of just about every pilot , both sides of 89 and QF. They all care about #1 first.
You precious dears are only concerned about missing out on something, not what is right( and I don't care who is right). Welcome to the real word.
There is no divine right just because you have sat on your fat ar-e for years with the minimum input and trying to milk the maximum salary. Most were handed a career , developed an attitude of arrogance and a belief that they are above all others. Here is where you find out the truth.
If you don't like what is happening, vote with your feet!
Sorry, didn't mean to make your choke on your tea " commander". Upset the applecart, what?
Shock Horror, what?
Grow up and stop blaming others for what you and your union has created.
From what I have read on this site, surely only Ansett pilots were involved. Hasn't been any mention of Australian Airlines for years, .......until now. Why ?
Aaahhh!!! It now effects those precious gods of aviation QF.
The "creme de la creme" of aviation ,those who were "hollier than thou" in 89 and supposedly stayed out of it. For the good, or because they saw it as more beneficial to them? The chickens have come home to roost!
What ever is happening in your company stems from the character of just about every pilot , both sides of 89 and QF. They all care about #1 first.
You precious dears are only concerned about missing out on something, not what is right( and I don't care who is right). Welcome to the real word.
There is no divine right just because you have sat on your fat ar-e for years with the minimum input and trying to milk the maximum salary. Most were handed a career , developed an attitude of arrogance and a belief that they are above all others. Here is where you find out the truth.
If you don't like what is happening, vote with your feet!
Sorry, didn't mean to make your choke on your tea " commander". Upset the applecart, what?
Shock Horror, what?
Grow up and stop blaming others for what you and your union has created.
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Oh boy. The Q pilots are squealing like stuck pigs.
For those not in on the situation, back when Qf "bought" Australian for a bargain price off the Gummint of the day they had to strike a deal to work out seniority for the 2 groups.
One rocket scientist manager by the initials WK and a mate worked out a deal over a dinner table one night. Create 2 groups. A pilots got domestic Q pilots got international to simplify it. Any future type not yet in service would be shared as necessary between the 2 groups fairly. As usual the Q blokes want the lot and management are no doubt are happy with that. Very cosy.
Unfortunately for them an independant arbitrator is looking at the original agreement to work out who gets what. The original agreement is coming under real scrutiny for the first time.
The Q people are getting nasty as shown above indicating that they are sh*tting themselves.
Watch this space ladies and gentlemen.
For those not in on the situation, back when Qf "bought" Australian for a bargain price off the Gummint of the day they had to strike a deal to work out seniority for the 2 groups.
One rocket scientist manager by the initials WK and a mate worked out a deal over a dinner table one night. Create 2 groups. A pilots got domestic Q pilots got international to simplify it. Any future type not yet in service would be shared as necessary between the 2 groups fairly. As usual the Q blokes want the lot and management are no doubt are happy with that. Very cosy.
Unfortunately for them an independant arbitrator is looking at the original agreement to work out who gets what. The original agreement is coming under real scrutiny for the first time.
The Q people are getting nasty as shown above indicating that they are sh*tting themselves.
Watch this space ladies and gentlemen.
QF Longhaul pilots did VERY well out of the merger and the subsequent intergration deal. The 767 stayed a 100% LH aircraft, even though many were added to the fleet PURELY to cover the domestic network, and replace the shorthaul A300.
Suprise Suprise, a new type might actually allow the short haul guys (Many of whom took no part in the '89 dispute) to regain some lost ground, and out come the sky-gods bleating that there cosy existences are threatend, and of course bandying the "S" word.
Dear god, a QF Long Haul (Tug forelock) pilot junior to a shouthaul (PHTOI!!) guy! What is the world coming to!!
Suprise Suprise, a new type might actually allow the short haul guys (Many of whom took no part in the '89 dispute) to regain some lost ground, and out come the sky-gods bleating that there cosy existences are threatend, and of course bandying the "S" word.
Dear god, a QF Long Haul (Tug forelock) pilot junior to a shouthaul (PHTOI!!) guy! What is the world coming to!!
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Share it around
So the QF Gods don't only hate Cabin Crew but other pilots as well.How benevolent of them to spread it around.Looks as though they are about to get their comeuppance .Ho Ho Chuckle chuckle.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
ss6, I am not a QANTAS pilot, but I find some of your posts - such as the one above - bitchy.
You've got a BIG chip on your shoulders......your slip is showing, and your rouge is smudged
But that aside, ALL of you QF'ers are in the same boat, and I would have thought that with Dixon drilling as many holes into it, from the outside, as he can, he wouldn't need any assistance from the likes of [U]you[/b] on the inside!!
You've got a BIG chip on your shoulders......your slip is showing, and your rouge is smudged
But that aside, ALL of you QF'ers are in the same boat, and I would have thought that with Dixon drilling as many holes into it, from the outside, as he can, he wouldn't need any assistance from the likes of [U]you[/b] on the inside!!
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I have asked this question many times on PPrune and NEVER received a reply to it. Well let it never be said that I am not persistent.
Q. Given that the '89 dispute involved a completely separate union to AIPA, and that AIPA was not in dispute with Qantas at the time, what precise level of support did AFAP members expect and not get?
This is a serious question and I would like a serious reply.
Q. Given that the '89 dispute involved a completely separate union to AIPA, and that AIPA was not in dispute with Qantas at the time, what precise level of support did AFAP members expect and not get?
This is a serious question and I would like a serious reply.
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Well, I must be a "chickensh1t little darling" (a qrewroom joke - thanks Bill - you really are hilarious!) because I joined after '92.
The thing that worries me most about this little dispute - and I call it little because it doesn't involve a huge number of people - is that AIPA's focus is completely lost on the most important thing right now.
Extinction.
QF Pilots out there? For farks sake, STOP squabbling over some scraps and do something to ensure that we as a group survive. Because the company is laughing their collective @rses off at us at the moment, whilst screwing us some more. What good is winning this battle if we lose the big one?
My union dues are going towards fighting a battle which will deliver a phyrric victory, whichever way it goes. It disgusts me. Grow up all of you. Bonvol, I hoped for more from you my friend.
Bill? Go away and retire. You are a mean, nasty, ill spirited, tyrannical, lonely old fool who needs to spend the rest of your days in a bowls club.
The thing that worries me most about this little dispute - and I call it little because it doesn't involve a huge number of people - is that AIPA's focus is completely lost on the most important thing right now.
Extinction.
QF Pilots out there? For farks sake, STOP squabbling over some scraps and do something to ensure that we as a group survive. Because the company is laughing their collective @rses off at us at the moment, whilst screwing us some more. What good is winning this battle if we lose the big one?
My union dues are going towards fighting a battle which will deliver a phyrric victory, whichever way it goes. It disgusts me. Grow up all of you. Bonvol, I hoped for more from you my friend.
Bill? Go away and retire. You are a mean, nasty, ill spirited, tyrannical, lonely old fool who needs to spend the rest of your days in a bowls club.
G'day Ladies and Laddies,..
IT IS a VERY OLD AXIOM...United you stand, divided you are / will be "LIKE THE CHRISTMAS TURKEY"!!!!!
Please take a leaf from an 'old book', sit down for a minute or two, and really THINK about where you go from here....for the combined good of ALL of you.
In no way do I wish to sound 'patronising in any way', but I do have some experience in industrial matters v management.
My first suggestion would be for someone there to do a 'quiet' survey of aircrew of all affected 'groups' (LH/SH etc) to ascertain just who / how many might be willing to come to some 'formal' arrangement, for the combined good of all of you.
In the era of which I speak, the motto was 'as much as possible for as many as possible', and, it worked.
Meet 'privately' at the Coogee Bay or where-ever, to formulate a strategy of aircrew unity if this at all possible...
Try to formulate an 'agreement' between yourselves, to present an arrangement based on CONSULTATION between Aircrew (combined groups in UNITY) and CONSULTATION with the management group.
THEY most certainly, WILL be organised, by direction from the 'TOP', with each successive rung of the ladder 'down' looking UP, after his/her own interests for their his/her own self preservation.
('Yes men' is the term I believe...)
If you can get this far you are half way home......
Then, when you have the complete and undivided attention of the management group, you will have Consultation / Negotiation..
(Reminds me of the old joke about 'What do you have, if you have a moth ball in the left hand and another in the right hand....?')
Too difficult?
Sorry to sound out the obvious, but the -alternates- look 'crapped in'.
ps Definition of 'CONSULTATION' as described by COMMISSIONER G. SMITH....
"In relation to the concept of consultation I wish to make it clear that this involves more than a mere exchange of information.
For consultation to be effective the participants must be contributing to the decision-making process not only in appearance, but in fact."
Commissioner G. Smith Melbourne, 12 March 1991.
The reference can be supplied on request.
May you be able to utilise this legal definition to its fullest extent.
Cheers and good luck.
IT IS a VERY OLD AXIOM...United you stand, divided you are / will be "LIKE THE CHRISTMAS TURKEY"!!!!!
Please take a leaf from an 'old book', sit down for a minute or two, and really THINK about where you go from here....for the combined good of ALL of you.
In no way do I wish to sound 'patronising in any way', but I do have some experience in industrial matters v management.
My first suggestion would be for someone there to do a 'quiet' survey of aircrew of all affected 'groups' (LH/SH etc) to ascertain just who / how many might be willing to come to some 'formal' arrangement, for the combined good of all of you.
In the era of which I speak, the motto was 'as much as possible for as many as possible', and, it worked.
Meet 'privately' at the Coogee Bay or where-ever, to formulate a strategy of aircrew unity if this at all possible...
Try to formulate an 'agreement' between yourselves, to present an arrangement based on CONSULTATION between Aircrew (combined groups in UNITY) and CONSULTATION with the management group.
THEY most certainly, WILL be organised, by direction from the 'TOP', with each successive rung of the ladder 'down' looking UP, after his/her own interests for their his/her own self preservation.
('Yes men' is the term I believe...)
If you can get this far you are half way home......
Then, when you have the complete and undivided attention of the management group, you will have Consultation / Negotiation..
(Reminds me of the old joke about 'What do you have, if you have a moth ball in the left hand and another in the right hand....?')
Too difficult?
Sorry to sound out the obvious, but the -alternates- look 'crapped in'.
ps Definition of 'CONSULTATION' as described by COMMISSIONER G. SMITH....
"In relation to the concept of consultation I wish to make it clear that this involves more than a mere exchange of information.
For consultation to be effective the participants must be contributing to the decision-making process not only in appearance, but in fact."
Commissioner G. Smith Melbourne, 12 March 1991.
The reference can be supplied on request.
May you be able to utilise this legal definition to its fullest extent.
Cheers and good luck.
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 25th Feb 2005 at 11:39.
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Thanks sunfish for that essential, intelligent and timely gem of advice.
I think it's time for a pilots-only forum so things like this A330 topic and other similar can be discussed by those concerned ONLY without constant butting-in by the wannabes or morons.
I think it's time for a pilots-only forum so things like this A330 topic and other similar can be discussed by those concerned ONLY without constant butting-in by the wannabes or morons.