Ibex

The Australian Friday March 12- Steve Creedy


Extracts from the article

DirtyPierre

Why are we hearing from the VP of AOPA Ron Bertram? Why isn't Ron Lawford making these statements to the press.

AOPA have a legitimate say in what happens even if they are only a "lobby group" according to some.

But it seems that not everyone within AOPA agrees with some of the statements made by their executive. Sometimes the executive seem to disagree amongst themselves. Perhaps it's because so many of the executive seem to want to be heard in the media.

Civilair, AIPA, AFAP, TWU, RAAA, etc all have one person who is the contact with the media for policy and comments. Why can't AOPA do the same?

But what is worst, they don't seem to have a handle on what's going on. AsA proposing a temporary rollback? AsA aren't proposing any rollback. Just an "enhancement" of NAS which includes frequencies on charts, some slight modification to the steps around some airfields, and maybe some more educational material.

Hey you dudes in AOPA. 2C is on the way.

Don't be afraid, be very afraid!

Dog One

If the AOPA members will have problems understanding changes to enhance safety in this airspace changes that we didn't need in the first place, then I would suggest they or their organisation seek some training, as if they can't understand change, it means they didn't understand the original changes.

Methinks that AOPA and the other lobbyists that have pushed for airspace change should put their money where there mouth is - this is the third airspace change which has failed, all these attempts have cost this country millions of dollars, completely and utterly wasted. The amount of money wasted would have funded the original pre AMATS airspace, ATC and FLight Service.

To expose the travelling public to the risk of a mid air collision in E airspace without radar must gaurantee the designer a Darwin award for stupity.

The government needs to look at the amount of money wasted on these airspace changes - as it certainly will become an election issue.

HotZone

DirtyPierre seems to have hit the nail on its preverbial head. The AOPA Exc will say anything to get into the media for their own personal agenda.

Should AOPA have just ONE media representative? Yes in order to portray some degree of professionalism. United they stand, divided they fall....is the saying I'm looking for here.

Did anyone else see the news item back in Nov when the current VP Bertram inormed us that NAS was safe and the frequencies on charts were eliminated in order to avoid confusion and "cluttering"? I know I did..interesting to see this rollback.

bigfella5

Just another example of low hour licence holders with far too much money than sense dictating to the professionals how to go about their jobs

Atlas Shrugged

I'm not a professional pilot. I'm private and contrary to what AOPA claim on my behalf DO NOT support NAS, nor indeed AOPA.

I have known Bertram for some time and have had the pleasure of flying with him on a number of occasions in the past which makes it even more difficult to understand how a group, claiming as they do to represent GA pilots, could be so unprofessional.

Shitsu-Tonka got it - nothing more than a lobby group trying to gain the support of those gullible enough to not question it.

Most disappointing

AS

cogwheel

The sad part is that is seems obvious the AOPA board is in disarray and President Lawford does not seem to enjoy a majority when things go to a vote. The selfish views of a few are now destroying the Association by letting this mob rule riot over the fate of the association as the membership walks out the door.

There was much talk on the AOPA Forum a few weeks back on who should speak to the press, especially after Hamilton spoke out, apparently without board approval. The pro NAS, anti CASA view is alive and well within this board majority. Pity, but I don't believe they are representing the views of the membership.

The above (extremist) majority has given Bertram approval to "speak" on NAS matters. It does not appear to matter what the others think or what the President says. Bertram has his own views and as the operator of a flying school seems to believe that NAS will save his bacon and that all the scare talk of late is driving students away.

If only it was that simple.

DirtyPierre

I'm surprised that Bertram is so simplistic in his view about why his business is failing.

Would his business viability have anything to do with;

- rising price of consumables like fuel, oil, office equipment, etc
- rising cost of maintenance and engineering
- rising cost of insurance
- rising cost of maintaining documents and licences due to government regulations
- increasing cost of living, and the fact he is providing a service to customers who may spend money on other priorities when finances are tight?

Nah! Nothun to do wit dat!

ferris

IMHO it's far more simplistic than that.

When I was a kid, an airline pilot= loads of money, hardly ever worked, days away in 5 star luxury, surrounded by gorgous young things, glamour, glamour , glamour.

Now= path to airline job fraught with loads of potholes (including huge debts as you pay for endorsements), then monotonously boring job punctuated by minimum rest in whatever hotel co. can get away with, earning a teacher's wage.
Anyone spot the difference?

Am I wrong?

And they wonder why flying schools are struggling?

INSIDEOUT

Where to start.
It is not that often I visit or comment on forums but I could not resist this one. I am Ron Bertram in case there is any doubt so I will start.

"I'm surprised that Bertram is so simplistic in his view about why his business is failing.
Would his business viability have anything to do with;
- rising price of consumables like fuel, oil, office equipment, etc
- rising cost of maintenance and engineering
- rising cost of insurance
- rising cost of maintaining documents and licences due to government regulations
- increasing cost of living, and the fact he is providing a service to customers who may spend money on other priorities when finances are tight?"

DirtyPierre
Please don't take this personally, but your lack of understanding on operating costs astounds me for a start the only real costs that have changed in all of the above is the cost of fuel, My insurance renewal was the exact same price this year, have not seen any rise in maintenance cost in fact I would argue that with some of the regulatory changes that have taken place they have actually reduced.

In fact recent figure release indicate that people are spending more on recreational activities with record sales in Jet ski's, motorbikes and new cars this year.

"The above (extremist) majority has given Bertram approval to "speak" on NAS matters. It does not appear to matter what the others think or what the President says. Bertram has his own views and as the operator of a flying school seems to believe that NAS will save his bacon and that all the scare talk of late is driving students away."

cogwheel,
Now I am not sure where you get your info from, but I have been working on NAS for a year now. Your are so far removed from the mark as far as representing my own views it’s unbelievable. ? Have you ever asked me my views if you would like to know them I will be happy to discuss them in private 0408 637212.

AOPA had a pole with members and I continually ask their views in passing conversation as far as I am aware the entire board agree and have the same policy.


Atlas Shrugged,
You would know that my personal views may differ at times to policy, I don’t know how to explain this in a way you all will understand, but that is not my job in AOPA I am here to represent its members views and board policy. I actually have better things in my life to do than this believe it or not. My boat has not been on the water this year as yet . Some of you may be members if so and you want your say talk to me I will bring it up at a board meeting and leave it open for debate.


"But what is worst, they don't seem to have a handle on what's going on. AsA proposing a temporary rollback? AsA aren't proposing any rollback. Just an "enhancement" of NAS which includes frequencies on charts, some slight modification to the steps around some airfields, and maybe some more educational material."

DirtyPierre
This is getting silly you know fine well what becomes of a temporary roll back in this industry. I will now tell what happened at a recent haz id workshop.

Hazard, without frequencies and boundaries on maps on maps VFR pilot’s aircraft may be on different frequencies so there is an increase of collision. Mitigator place frequencies and boundaries back on maps.

Sounds fair? Not my decision.

Later in the day.

Hazard, when transiting from class E to class C and back again a VFR pilot may not be aware or misidentify the boundaries and be on the wrong frequency causing an increased risk of collision.

Now which is it to be guys in one argument boundaries and frequencies are used as a mitigator and in the other a hazard. This comment coming from a professional pilot?

Common denominator to above private VFR pilot simply should not occupy MY airspace after all he is not a professional.

Look we can argue this all day I accept people have various views. I also do what I am told if Ron Lawford wishes to do all the media work that’s fine by me, just for interest I have never made a media release without 1. Ron L reading and authorising it. 2 Been given permission in the first place. 3 Alway stuck to board policy.

As far as TV and radio they generally always go to Ron L, if he is not available then he may pass it on to me there are also times that they need to be done at the last min and I will have always contacted him for permission that is the job of a VP sorry if you don’t understand this.

Finally the board is not in fact in disarray sorry to disappoint you all we may not all agree but surely that's what active debate is all about. If any of you think that most public companies act any different then you need to do a bit more research. If you don’t like what’s happening stand for election and change things or become a member and vote I can't say much more than this.

Ron Bertram

bigfella5

Ron B,
Just for the record..........
1. Just what is your position on NAS?
2. Why are schools failing?
A couple of simplistic questions I know however......
Cheers

tobzalp

Serious question Ron. What is your point?

INSIDEOUT

bigfella5
Now you should know better than to expect me to answer those Question, s on a public forum that’s why I left my number.
For the record I never stated in my post that I thought schools were failing or to the media for that matter I basically stated that since 27/11 we have suffered a decline on new people wanting to learn to fly, this is not my view it followed a meeting of operators in Sydney these are facts not fiction and supported by records of flying hours.

tobzalp

Not really trying to make a point, there are allot of misconceptions and accusations out there just attempting to shed a little light.

bigfella5

Ron,
If it is the case that schools are experiencing falling flying hours, what then...in your view...are the prime and ancillary reasons behind this decline of individuals wanting to learn how to fly?
The NAS one I'll leave to ask u personally!
Cheers

Richo

Hello Ron B

Good to see you have a go here on PPRuNe. I hope the light you spread is reflective.

I see that you make the point that student numbers/ flying hours have dropped off after 27/11. I aggre that it is not nessecarily because of the amount of ready cash about in the community in general.

But to assume that it is because of the aviation community in general not supporting NAS in the media is not a good ground to stand on.

How about just maybe the public are staying away beacuse of NAS and the REAL reduction in safety in our skies. The people out there a not inclined to belive eveything they hear, especialy from Pollies, lobby groups and media junkies like Dick. But when they hear the respected and normaly conservative pilots and air trafficers bieng so concered about something then they may listen more, hence the low numbers, its just as plausable as your theory.

Personally I self predicted a down turn in avaiation training some time ago, but my resoning was the them move to LSC which has caused major increases in the cost of learning to fly for the majority of our city dwelling population.

You attened HAZID, good for you. But just were did anybody say you PPL or private operators must stay away from OUR CTA. They did'nt, anybody can use CTA, sure you pay, but the vast majority of users are IFR RPT/charter operators who operate aircraft in a high performance cattegory and are happy (sometimes) to pay. Should we use a LESS safe system just to appease a small amount of operators??, its a fair question.

As a 20+ year pilot, GA instructor and >57000 pilot I liked what I saw at the recient WA RAPAC from AsA for the enhacment of NAS, it will put back a lot of the safety, in some aspects its an improvment but overall the NAS structure is to present less safe operating environment, and that does not have my support.

Thanks for your time, and good luck to AOPA. Just remember you need many diferent views to make a truly representive body, the proof is in the ability to get over the speed bumps, and to climb the mountian.

Richo

INSIDEOUT

bigfella5

I cannot give you all the answers to that there is probably multiple reasons, expense, age of training aircraft, difficulty of finding work, attitude of instructors, training standards to name a few.

But what I can say is that I am part of a working group that is meeting regularly to look into these area's with a fine tooth comb and hope to find some answers I would also love some of you guys out there to forward reasons why you think there is a decline my email is rbertram@afts.net, hope that answers your question.

Atlas Shrugged

Ron,

Understood. I'm sure you realise that I was not having a go at you personally. I just find it insulting when a AOPA claim to represent me on matters where our views oppose. It is based entirely upon the assumption that because I hold a private licence I agree with and support their stance on various issues. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Whilst it is of no concern to me what goes on inside AOPA, from the outside it seems that they (and others) have done no end of damage to their reputation by the way in which thay have handled the issue of airspace reform and regrettably, this is what is being fed to the public.

AS

cogwheel

Good for you Ron, Dick has been working on NAS and it's variations for 15 yrs he says, so your one year looks real good.

NAS has a minimal effect on the state of GA or its survival - any thoughts that it might save the day is a pipe dream.

I have some difficulty in the belief that you (and the board) are all working as a team. You seem by default to have aligned yourself with the extremists, which is clearly the problem AOPA has. Get rid of those (extremists) and you may just see a turnaround.

As a member, when I see a such a turnaround I will gladly give you a call. In the meantime I suggest you are out of touch with the membership that is not in the training world or lives outside of Sydney.

bigfella5

Ron,
I'd like to do that however I'd suggest it might be more interesting for whoever is following these threads and economical from at least your point of view to put these discussions out on an open forum.
What say we start a thread called "Reasons behind the flying training demise" or such and give everybody a go?
Someone might even learn something!
Waddya say?
CHeers

INSIDEOUT

bigfella5

I agree after all everything to gain nothing to loose.