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Old 31st May 2017, 16:25   #161 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
why don't they fill in that bit of the dock south of the runway...?

That stretch of waterway, filled in with clay and aggregates, would provide possibly 20 additional a/c stands.

Surely NATS should be working with it's customers...
Zooker, good grief, your post just highlights how ignorant you are.

Have you seen/studied the airport's master plan?

"why don't they fill in that bit of the dock south of the runway"....They are. (In actual fact it will be the same construction type as the East Apron, which added 4 stands to the airport).

"That stretch of waterway, filled in with clay and aggregates, would provide possibly 20 additional a/c stands." ...Great idea Zooker - you are such a visionary!
Just a shame the airport thought of it a long time ago (and finally received planning permission for it last year) or you could've sold them that idea...

"Surely NATS should be working with it's customers"...ummmmm, mind-boggling that you think NATS isn't. From the airport's own press release I quote "NATS, the UKs leading provider of air traffic control services, endorses the decision to replace the existing 30-year old control tower with a digital tower".

I always try to entertain other people's point of view Zooker, but you make it really, really hard to take anything you say seriously.
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Old 31st May 2017, 16:44   #162 (permalink)
 
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Top post, good egg.

Sadly, the EGLC master-plan hasn't been high on my reading-list lately. Must check it out.
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Old 31st May 2017, 18:26   #163 (permalink)
 
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The east-end of London seems to have more 'Master-Plans' than you can shake a big stick at........I can't find the airport one.

If EGLCZT is 30 years old, why wasn't the potential future growth of the airport spotted and acted-on back in the day?

There's a list of 10 "key features" that 'digital towers' would have, on the NATS public web-site.

All but 2 of them already exist in the 'analogue models'.

Last edited by ZOOKER; 1st Jun 2017 at 16:10.
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Old 31st May 2017, 19:15   #164 (permalink)
 
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@ Zooker
Back in the 70's & even the 80's, I don't think anyone envisaged the massive growth that has occurred in the East End. The Docklands Light Railway opened in 1987 with 11 EMUs & 15 stations along 8 miles. Today there are 145 EMUs & 45 stations along 24 miles. I reckon EGLC would be even bigger if it wasn't for the environmental impact......
p.s. I visited the VCR in 2012 - I would quite liked to have ended my career there :-)

Last edited by Eric T Cartman; 31st May 2017 at 19:46.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 07:57   #165 (permalink)
 
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You make a lot of valid points. Just curious...do you mean "added complexity" - from an ATCO perspective? Or from a system perspective?
I see the added complexity from a system perspective - lots of physical items that can potentially fail - or extra layers of potential swiss cheese (for Reason fans)!
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 08:03   #166 (permalink)
 
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Neptune 262,

Some good points.

I would argue that in a modern, surveillance equipped tower, 'RSVA' is an outdated concept.

To do 2.5nm spacing (delivered to 4DME - as soon as the leader gets to 4MDE that starts to reduce) I need to be visual with the follower at 6.5DME.

This implies that being visual with both aircraft provides an added level of safety. However, when looking at a pair of aircraft heading virtually straight for me, I cannot tell if they are 2.7nm apart or 2.4nm apart, nor if they are closing or diverging. However, I can do that if I look at my surveillance system.
I would say that RSVA is still very useful in some tower operations, it depends on the nature of the traffic and airspace. Yes, maybe for predominantly IFR traffic into a busy airport, RSVA is not that used, but for others with mixed mode traffic, it is a tool that ATCOs still utilise.

The difference now is the "visual" part (as understood to be glass window and eyeball) is being replaced by an electronic display and eyeball.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #167 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by good egg View Post
Just out of interest, were there many differences between how each airfield operated? Obviously each airfield layout is different but are the practices across them more similar than the diversity amongst civil airports? E.g. (as I cited earlier as an example) does the application of "runway vacated" vary between the fields you held simultaneous endorsements at?

(At some civil airfields ATC are permitted to treat a landing aircraft as "vacated" the moment the tail has cleared the active runway....at others it won't be considered "vacated" until the tail has cleared the runway stop-bar.)
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its fnial exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #168 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Neptune262 View Post
I would say that RSVA is still very useful in some tower operations, it depends on the nature of the traffic and airspace. Yes, maybe for predominantly IFR traffic into a busy airport, RSVA is not that used, but for others with mixed mode traffic, it is a tool that ATCOs still utilise.

The difference now is the "visual" part (as understood to be glass window and eyeball) is being replaced by an electronic display and eyeball.
For "mixed mode" do you mean IFR/VFR interactions?

If so, in Class D they are not provided with separation per se so RSVA is a bit of a misnomer.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #169 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by good egg View Post
Just out of interest, were there many differences between how each airfield operated? Obviously each airfield layout is different but are the practices across them more similar than the diversity amongst civil airports? E.g. (as I cited earlier as an example) does the application of "runway vacated" vary between the fields you held simultaneous endorsements at?

(At some civil airfields ATC are permitted to treat a landing aircraft as "vacated" the moment the tail has cleared the active runway....at others it won't be considered "vacated" until the tail has cleared the runway stop-bar.)
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its final exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:14   #170 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Neptune262 View Post
I see the added complexity from a system perspective - lots of physical items that can potentially fail - or extra layers of potential swiss cheese (for Reason fans)!
Yes, the resiliency and redundancy of the system will be vital.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:21   #171 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by orgASMic View Post
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its final exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
Thanks. One of my concerns about multiple validations of civil aerodromes is the difference in ATC operating procedures and definitions, e.g. "runway vacated", and misapplication.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:59   #172 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Gonzo View Post

I would argue that in a modern, surveillance equipped tower, 'RSVA' is an outdated concept.
Does Heathrow not use RSVA for 'wheels up' departure splits?
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 11:27   #173 (permalink)

 
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Starlord, we do.

But what does it give me? How is it safer? A pair of aircraft heading away from me, I can't tell if they are getting closer to each other, I can't tell if they are getting further apart (until one of them turns). I get a better idea of that from my radar, with Mode S airspeed, groundspeed, Mode C altitude.

I look at them out of the window because I have to. I look at them on the radar to see their relative positions and speed, which surely is the safety critical thing.

That's what I mean by outdated.

RSVA developed as a concept when control towers had no surveillance capability.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 12:06   #174 (permalink)
 
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A tower controller that looks out of the window, that is so last season!!!
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 20:15   #175 (permalink)
 
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Being an old fashioned, retired bod who reads about these "new innovations" with a fairly open mind, I'm having a little trouble seeing how the remote operation of LCY brings any benefits.

You still have to have a controller, presumably controlling, albeit now from a dark windowless room, (that should make up for all those brilliantly dazzling sunrises and sunsets) on the sunny south coast. Whilst up at LCY all the "skills" that were inherent in said controller now have to be supplemented by lots of CCTVs with infra-red capabilities or whatever and at what cost? Oh, did anyone mention cleaning said CCTV lenses when they fog up or get crap on them at just the wrong moment?

Not one to stand in the way of progress, but where is the cost saving, if this is what it's all about? Where's the job satisfaction? Sounds to me like another idea pinched from an under-utilised airport in Northern Norway that some poor misguided management "yoof" decided he would use to make his mark on his steady progression to the top.

Thankfully, I'm now well retired (not before time, I hear some shout) but I do miss those beautiful sunrises and sunsets and the bonhommie, not to mention the professional respect, engendered by a wave or thumbs up after a "greaser" or a well executed cross-wind landing at the limits, or that not so good bouncer.

I can't say I envy the "new" tower controllers at LCY Swanwick. They will miss out on what were some of the most enjoyable experiences of my time in ATC.

Think carefully about what you consider to be progress and be sure your UPS works!
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 20:43   #176 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by On the beach View Post
. Whilst up at LCY all the "skills" that were inherent in said controller now have to be supplemented by lots of CCTVs with infra-red capabilities or whatever and at what cost?
I knew LCY controllers were good.....didn't realise they could see into the IR band though!
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 08:05   #177 (permalink)
 
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One thing that needs consideration, what to do about the 200' spiders that will crawl across the lens without warning?
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 08:22   #178 (permalink)

 
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One thing that needs consideration, what to do about the 200' spiders that will crawl across the lens without warning?
Air knives!
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 20:00   #179 (permalink)
 
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Question was asked of Remote Tower salespeople at Amsterdam and Madrid exhibitions. You blow a constant stream of warm air across the face of the lens, thereby removing said spides and web.

HB
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 20:13   #180 (permalink)
 
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so now we need a hot air blower system (and backup) to all cameras, perhaps we could pipe it direct from head office - bound to never fail or run out that way!!!!
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