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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #161 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by good egg View Post
Just out of interest, were there many differences between how each airfield operated? Obviously each airfield layout is different but are the practices across them more similar than the diversity amongst civil airports? E.g. (as I cited earlier as an example) does the application of "runway vacated" vary between the fields you held simultaneous endorsements at?

(At some civil airfields ATC are permitted to treat a landing aircraft as "vacated" the moment the tail has cleared the active runway....at others it won't be considered "vacated" until the tail has cleared the runway stop-bar.)
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its fnial exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #162 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Neptune262 View Post
I would say that RSVA is still very useful in some tower operations, it depends on the nature of the traffic and airspace. Yes, maybe for predominantly IFR traffic into a busy airport, RSVA is not that used, but for others with mixed mode traffic, it is a tool that ATCOs still utilise.

The difference now is the "visual" part (as understood to be glass window and eyeball) is being replaced by an electronic display and eyeball.
For "mixed mode" do you mean IFR/VFR interactions?

If so, in Class D they are not provided with separation per se so RSVA is a bit of a misnomer.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:11   #163 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by good egg View Post
Just out of interest, were there many differences between how each airfield operated? Obviously each airfield layout is different but are the practices across them more similar than the diversity amongst civil airports? E.g. (as I cited earlier as an example) does the application of "runway vacated" vary between the fields you held simultaneous endorsements at?

(At some civil airfields ATC are permitted to treat a landing aircraft as "vacated" the moment the tail has cleared the active runway....at others it won't be considered "vacated" until the tail has cleared the runway stop-bar.)
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its final exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:14   #164 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Neptune262 View Post
I see the added complexity from a system perspective - lots of physical items that can potentially fail - or extra layers of potential swiss cheese (for Reason fans)!
Yes, the resiliency and redundancy of the system will be vital.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:21   #165 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by orgASMic View Post
Three of the four were part of the same Flying Training School (Dishforth was the odd one out, being Army Air Corps), so similar rules and procedures with only the aerodrome layout and SIDs/STARs being different. Plenty of commonality and a lot of military latitude with regards to runway occupancy (landing same speed or slower aircraft behind aircraft already touched down/just airborne) applied across all three.

As in my original post, the types were limited to what the School operated but Linton would get a more diverse clientele (the Harrier OCU would do its final exercise based out of there, which made things interesting). In most cases the big differences were limited to the rwy hdgs and the immediate surroundings.
Thanks. One of my concerns about multiple validations of civil aerodromes is the difference in ATC operating procedures and definitions, e.g. "runway vacated", and misapplication.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 10:59   #166 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Gonzo View Post

I would argue that in a modern, surveillance equipped tower, 'RSVA' is an outdated concept.
Does Heathrow not use RSVA for 'wheels up' departure splits?
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 11:27   #167 (permalink)

 
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Starlord, we do.

But what does it give me? How is it safer? A pair of aircraft heading away from me, I can't tell if they are getting closer to each other, I can't tell if they are getting further apart (until one of them turns). I get a better idea of that from my radar, with Mode S airspeed, groundspeed, Mode C altitude.

I look at them out of the window because I have to. I look at them on the radar to see their relative positions and speed, which surely is the safety critical thing.

That's what I mean by outdated.

RSVA developed as a concept when control towers had no surveillance capability.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 12:06   #168 (permalink)
 
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A tower controller that looks out of the window, that is so last season!!!
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 20:15   #169 (permalink)
 
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Being an old fashioned, retired bod who reads about these "new innovations" with a fairly open mind, I'm having a little trouble seeing how the remote operation of LCY brings any benefits.

You still have to have a controller, presumably controlling, albeit now from a dark windowless room, (that should make up for all those brilliantly dazzling sunrises and sunsets) on the sunny south coast. Whilst up at LCY all the "skills" that were inherent in said controller now have to be supplemented by lots of CCTVs with infra-red capabilities or whatever and at what cost? Oh, did anyone mention cleaning said CCTV lenses when they fog up or get crap on them at just the wrong moment?

Not one to stand in the way of progress, but where is the cost saving, if this is what it's all about? Where's the job satisfaction? Sounds to me like another idea pinched from an under-utilised airport in Northern Norway that some poor misguided management "yoof" decided he would use to make his mark on his steady progression to the top.

Thankfully, I'm now well retired (not before time, I hear some shout) but I do miss those beautiful sunrises and sunsets and the bonhommie, not to mention the professional respect, engendered by a wave or thumbs up after a "greaser" or a well executed cross-wind landing at the limits, or that not so good bouncer.

I can't say I envy the "new" tower controllers at LCY Swanwick. They will miss out on what were some of the most enjoyable experiences of my time in ATC.

Think carefully about what you consider to be progress and be sure your UPS works!
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Old 5th Jun 2017, 20:43   #170 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by On the beach View Post
. Whilst up at LCY all the "skills" that were inherent in said controller now have to be supplemented by lots of CCTVs with infra-red capabilities or whatever and at what cost?
I knew LCY controllers were good.....didn't realise they could see into the IR band though!
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 08:05   #171 (permalink)
 
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One thing that needs consideration, what to do about the 200' spiders that will crawl across the lens without warning?
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 08:22   #172 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by rodan View Post
One thing that needs consideration, what to do about the 200' spiders that will crawl across the lens without warning?
Air knives!
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 20:00   #173 (permalink)
 
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Question was asked of Remote Tower salespeople at Amsterdam and Madrid exhibitions. You blow a constant stream of warm air across the face of the lens, thereby removing said spides and web.

HB
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Old 6th Jun 2017, 20:13   #174 (permalink)
 
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so now we need a hot air blower system (and backup) to all cameras, perhaps we could pipe it direct from head office - bound to never fail or run out that way!!!!
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 13:35   #175 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by towerguy View Post
so now we need a hot air blower system (and backup) to all cameras, perhaps we could pipe it direct from head office - bound to never fail or run out that way!!!!
Makes me think that they're building this all on some very weak foundations... I fail to see, after much perusal, the benefits of the remote towers. I'm always open to new ideas or procedures, and am often one to 'go with the flow' as my other half says but I don't buy it. Recently on a visit to a unit on the other side of the country I saw the R-TWR in operation, only to see the derrière of a bird blocking one of the cameras!! Just another mantra adopted by a new hot-shot in HR if you ask me..
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Old 26th Jun 2017, 18:17   #176 (permalink)
 
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If control towers are 'a thing of the past', why have they put one on 'HMS Queen Elizabeth' then? Surely a digital VCR would would have the edge here?

Oh, and some planes would be handy, too.
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Old 5th Jul 2017, 09:08   #177 (permalink)
 
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Whilst up at LCY all the "skills" that were inherent in said controller now have to be supplemented by lots of CCTVs with infra-red capabilities
No IR imagery - it was investigated but hot engine exhaust was found to look too much like fire, and aircraft parked on a cold apron left aircraft-shaped IR shadows after they taxied... So its visual imagery (via the cameras) supplemented by radar blocks etc, and all the other gizmos already available in a bricks-and-mortar tower.
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