PPRuNe Forums


ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th May 2017, 13:37   #21 (permalink)

 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 38
Posts: 4,149
Let's assume you are in the position of supplying your customer with a service, provided by your employees at location A.

Customer comes to you and asks you to consider how to provide a service from another location instead, because they would like to use location A for something else. There's nowhere to build near location A either as there's just not enough room on your customer's customer's land.

What would you do?
Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 13:47   #22 (permalink)

 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 38
Posts: 4,149
Skipness, one could argue it makes it easier to change ANSP suppliers. One day the data/video feed is going to ANSP A, but the next day you flick a switch and the data/video feed is going to ANSP B somewhere in Europe? Some ANSPs are working on remote tower centres....why wouldn't this be the ultimate conclusion?

Islandlad, not sure it's that expensive to set up a few standalone controller workstations. The camera tower and redundant data feeds are the more expensive bits to come.

Last edited by Gonzo; 19th May 2017 at 13:58.
Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 14:58   #23 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: solent-on-sea
Posts: 413
I agree that it may be easy to switch service providers from a technical front, just plug in a new cable, but...
Perhaps it's more as a means of protecting contracts? When Gatwick was lost, I imagine the incoming provider was relying on a certain percentage of incumbent controllers staying put due to family/life ties to the area. If your controllers are 'remote' there may be less likelihood of them wanting to remain in situ and be transferred to new employer, as they are no longer bound to the airport area, so unless the new provider intends to set up their remote kit near the current one (but then why not?) there may be less numbers looking to stay on, and so more numbers needed from the new contractor to find from 'scratch', so perhaps a less attractive bid to win...
Not Long Now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 16:05   #24 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 12
LCY haven't even signed a contract with NATS yet. I wonder why? A disgruntled Saab and an ambitious ANS(DFS) may be lurking in the shadows.
Starlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 17:06   #25 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 331
Hang on, Luton is the next crack in the empire isn't it?
T250 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 18:01   #26 (permalink)

 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 38
Posts: 4,149
Islandlad, apologies, I must have misunderstood your earlier post. I assumed you thought the the setup 'launched' today was a fully operational facility and would be sitting idle for most of the next two years.

A few EFPS suites and some large monitors are not expensive. It's linking them into the wider world and the airport that I was thinking about as the main cost.

So I think we are agreeing.
Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 18:28   #27 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South of the River
Posts: 74
I've heard that the beer in Berlin is nice!
A Nonny Mouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 18:34   #28 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: antrim
Age: 56
Posts: 172
Forgive me as an outsider but this is something I'm interested in from a technology viewpoint.

The one issue I would have is that technology is simply not 100% secure 100% of the time. Any human designed system can be hacked by another human and nothing will ever change no matter how smart and smug IT departments are.

[QUOTE]LCY .... with a 'tower' in Berlin .... would TUPE apply? Or any other airport. A serious point i think./QUOTE]

I can get my head around a UK tower being provided from UK soil as radar is at present but how would it work with UK tower services being provided from a non UK state? How would this ever get past a regulatory authority and how would any incidents be dealt with?

The other issue would be training, I understand you good ATC folks go through a fairly intense training program. How would something like this simply be transferred to another state without the full cooperation of the existing controllers?
panpanpanpan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 18:47   #29 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,169
This is complete stupidity for a busy commercial operation. Let us face it, normal tower ops could be / is almost procedural. Flying is often done in very low vis. However, apart from the real benefit of local knowledge, being on-site and working locally, primarily visually, gives so much better direct information to the controller that, it should not be sacrificed. There is no problem with providing the controller with synthetic displays for low vis ops but, putting the total control out to some lowest bidder in their bedroom, totally vulnerable to the vagaries of IT is pure stupidity IMO.

OAP
Onceapilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 19:09   #30 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 49
Posts: 200
Well said OAP. A remote tower operation for London City, or for any airport that operates at a high level of traffic is madness.

Yes for the highlands of Scotland, or remote areas of Scandinavia, deepest darkest Africa maybe, with 2 or 3 aircraft a day. But London City, as my daughter would say OMG.

Alas the finance department and contract managers are involved now, it's going to happen.

Only 84 pay slips to retirement, then it's holidays by cruise ships, airports and ATC could be dangerous places!!!
Nimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 19:48   #31 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 113
There was rumour that London City might go to ANS
NewquayJacob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th May 2017, 21:22   #32 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 1,767
I'm with OAP.

In the Highlands, salt-spray, gale-force winds and blowing-sand would be major problems affecting the sensing technology. Plus getting the required robust, resilient, strong and stable digital communication-links to that part of The U.K....Bound to be fraught with technical problems......After all, where did 007 go to escape surveillance?............Scotland!

Also, post election/Brexit, Auntie Nicola will be very concerned about securing jobs for Scottish people.
Quite right too.
ZOOKER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 09:35   #33 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rapunzel's tower
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
I'm with OAP.

In the Highlands, salt-spray, gale-force winds and blowing-sand would be major problems affecting the sensing technology. Plus getting the required robust, resilient, strong and stable digital communication-links to that part of The U.K....Bound to be fraught with technical problems......After all, where did 007 go to escape surveillance?............Scotland!
I'm pretty sure that's what safety cases and safety assurance are for. Each is tailored to the specific environment. The demands the environment places on equipment in terms of specification and maintenance will all be factored in.
good egg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 10:20   #34 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rapunzel's tower
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
<<The sounds of the airport are also played over speakers, to make this virtual world more realistic - potentially noisier, in fact, than some insulated control rooms - after trials showed it helped controllers. It sounds a bit silly pumping noise into a control room but its something they need to do the job, Anderson added.>>

Really? What about major airfields where the Tower maybe some distance from the runway? I don't recall any extraneous noises at Heathrow Tower. If there were they were probably drowned out by internal noises.
Sorry, just playing catch up after a few days off...

HD there are various situations where hearing the sounds from an airport provide additional situational awareness for controllers.

For some aircraft types in particular the timing of, and differences, in the sounds created when engines are spooling prior to take off can affect how a controller deals with a tight gap.

The sound of an engine "popping" could be the first indication of a problem (particularly in low visibility operations)...birdstrike on departure? Engine failure on take off roll?

There are many, many more examples when air crews will be prioritising aviating and navigating rather than communicating with ATC, and hence why sounds are important to alert a tower controller.

Just because the tower you used to work at was so far from the runway(s) that sounds were seemingly irrelevant doesn't mean that they couldn't be beneficial at your previous location, or indeed other locations.

I have no problem with people offering opinions, sometimes they can be insightful and thought-provoking and raise relevant points.
Experience is important, however I can't help but think that your apparent lack of experience/knowledge of other operations and new technology clouds your judgement somewhat. You seem to base most of your posts on your experiences at EGLL (understandably) without even contemplating how, and why, other operations may be different.

Perhaps a more appropriate response would have been "Why are airfield sounds important to your operation?" (with or without your additional experience of sounds at your former workplace.)
good egg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 10:46   #35 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 49
Posts: 200
Safety cases!! Has anyone done a safety case for an ATCO sat in the tower at an airport?? Highly unlikely, as the situation doesn't need one!!��������

Safety cases can easily be manipulated to ensure the appropriate result is achieved.

Good Egg you do talk a lot of sense, and as you are a current City controller, and seem OK with this idea, then maybe it will work, I remain unconvinced though.
Nimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 18:40   #36 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South of the River
Posts: 74
Good Egg always talks sense, management always does

Do the majority of controllers at City believe that this is a step forward? Who knows, I don't suppose any of them have been asked or consulted!!!!

Last edited by A Nonny Mouse; 20th May 2017 at 18:52.
A Nonny Mouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 19:59   #37 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by GASA View Post
I believe the airport wants to get rid of the tower and use the space for something else.
Am I missing something? If that's the main reason, couldn't they just build a new tower on top of a terminal expansion?
jackieofalltrades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 20:16   #38 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rapunzel's tower
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Nonny Mouse View Post
Good Egg always talks sense, management always does

Do the majority of controllers at City believe that this is a step forward? Who knows, I don't suppose any of them have been asked or consulted!!!!
No early go for you Nonny!
good egg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 20:29   #39 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 1,767
jackie,

I read somewhere that the space presently occupied by the air traffic control tower is needed for a new 'lounge'.

Mind you, if Brexit happens and all the banks move to the EU, Wapping International Airport will be much less-busy.......And ideally-suited for r-TWR operations.

This could be the basis of NATS' thinking?
ZOOKER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2017, 20:41   #40 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: 29 Acacia Road
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
NATS' thinking?

landedoutagain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 16:42.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1