ICAO Radio Failure Procedures
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Djakarta
Age: 36
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICAO Radio Failure Procedures
Can somebody please explain the descent segment of this procedure. The procedure states " Proceed according to the current flight plan route to the designated navigation aid or fix serving the destination aerodrome hold over this aid or fix until commencement of descent".
1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.
2. There are some airports where there are no designated navaid or fix. What is the procedure then?
Thanks
arrow
1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.
2. There are some airports where there are no designated navaid or fix. What is the procedure then?
Thanks
arrow
Gender Faculty Specialist
1. Maintain your current level and then descend in the hold.
2. There will probably be an airport specific RFP in the AOI.
2. There will probably be an airport specific RFP in the AOI.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The procedure states " Proceed according to the current flight plan route to the designated navigation aid or fix serving the destination aerodrome hold over this aid or fix until commencement of descent"
1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.
1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.
2. There are some airports where there are no designated navaid or fix. What is the procedure then?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...btw, the FAA lost comms procedure is different. In the USA you maintain the altitude ATC assigned or told you to expect for the entire leg you are on (or minimum IFR altitdue if higher). This difference with ICAO may have been a factor in the mid air collision over Brazil.
Last edited by oggers; 3rd Apr 2017 at 14:05.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LookingForAJob,
ICAO Annex 2 para 3.6.5.2.2:
Nobody said anything about descending at the "plog TOD". When I wrote "as planned" it was in the context of the question "does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan".
Basically, after 7 minutes (or 20mins non-radar) at the assigned level (or minimum IFR altitude if higher) the crew will revert to the filed levels and descend iaw the flight plan. That has been the basic ICAO procedure since at least the early 90s.
I would argue, also, that the procedures in annex 2 para 3.6.5.2.2 refer to following the flight plan route, rather than all elements of the flight plan.
b) in airspace where radar is used in the provision of air
traffic control, maintain the last assigned speed and
level, or minimum flight altitude if higher, for a period
of 7 minutes following:
1) the time the last assigned level or minimum flight
altitude is reached; or
2) the time the transponder is set to Code 7600; or
3) the aircraft’s failure to report its position over a
compulsory reporting point;
whichever is later, and thereafter adjust level and speed
in accordance with the filed flight plan;
traffic control, maintain the last assigned speed and
level, or minimum flight altitude if higher, for a period
of 7 minutes following:
1) the time the last assigned level or minimum flight
altitude is reached; or
2) the time the transponder is set to Code 7600; or
3) the aircraft’s failure to report its position over a
compulsory reporting point;
whichever is later, and thereafter adjust level and speed
in accordance with the filed flight plan;
oggers states that the aircraft should descend en-route 'as planned'. My view is that this is incorrect because the spirit of the current procedures is to permit ATC to keep other traffic out of the way of the radio-fail aircraft. ATC has no idea where the plog TOD is - something that some might say is evidenced by complaints about late and early descent - and so descending en-route limits the ability of ATC to predict the trajectory of the aircraft after it starts descent.
Basically, after 7 minutes (or 20mins non-radar) at the assigned level (or minimum IFR altitude if higher) the crew will revert to the filed levels and descend iaw the flight plan. That has been the basic ICAO procedure since at least the early 90s.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
your response could be a bit ambiguous because the pilot undoubtedly will have a plan for the descent profile but it may not be reflected in the FPL.
Only half a speed-brake
hic Rodos, hic salta ...
FPL1:
-GCRR hhmm
- N458 F330 KORAL UN871 SONSO/N0456F340 UN871 OSDAM UB28 BARPA UM985 PIMOS UM445 BEGOX UN860 VLC UM985 LUMAS/N0454F320 UM985 EKSID/N0451F310 UM985 NOSTA/N0449F320 M985 GEN
- LIME 03:55 LIMC
FPL2:
- GCRR hhmm
- N0402 F120 TENDA
- GCFV 0020 GCRR
oggers? And because I like to wear my smart pants too, FPL = Filed Flight Plan message.
FPL1:
-GCRR hhmm
- N458 F330 KORAL UN871 SONSO/N0456F340 UN871 OSDAM UB28 BARPA UM985 PIMOS UM445 BEGOX UN860 VLC UM985 LUMAS/N0454F320 UM985 EKSID/N0451F310 UM985 NOSTA/N0449F320 M985 GEN
- LIME 03:55 LIMC
FPL2:
- GCRR hhmm
- N0402 F120 TENDA
- GCFV 0020 GCRR
oggers? And because I like to wear my smart pants too, FPL = Filed Flight Plan message.
Only half a speed-brake
Now the difference between being aimed at or just followed could well be hidden in whether or not the A/C with RCF is following the laid-out procedures, innit?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Djakarta
Age: 36
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lost Comms
My concern is the DESCENT component of the lost comms procedure. So just to clarify. If I lost my comms in the cruise lets say FL340. I will continue as per Flight Plan at FL 340 to the destination navaid if there was one and then descend from FL340 to an appropriate altitude at the appropriate time over the navaid and then position to fly an approach.
It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach.
It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach.
Only half a speed-brake
I believe that is the case. The point in the RCF procedures is being predictable.
And that's why I do not understand the option "or if in VMC proceed to land at suitable". How is that supposed to work, in class C airspace? Or any.
Also, oggers seems to be singing the same tune. The difference beteween Operator Flight Plan (OFP / PLOG) and ATC Filed Flight Plan (FPL) was a little lost at the beginning of the thread but no longer so. To my understanding there is no TOD in FPL ever, only a change of cruising level for the latter stages is the airspace structure and RADs (Route Availibility Document - Eurocontrol's airspace use guidlines) require so.
And that's why I do not understand the option "or if in VMC proceed to land at suitable". How is that supposed to work, in class C airspace? Or any.
Also, oggers seems to be singing the same tune. The difference beteween Operator Flight Plan (OFP / PLOG) and ATC Filed Flight Plan (FPL) was a little lost at the beginning of the thread but no longer so. To my understanding there is no TOD in FPL ever, only a change of cruising level for the latter stages is the airspace structure and RADs (Route Availibility Document - Eurocontrol's airspace use guidlines) require so.
The Cooler King
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In the Desert
Posts: 1,703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach."
Why does it seem ridiculous?
ATC are presuming that you will follow the FPL and will base separation on that.
Why does it seem ridiculous?
ATC are presuming that you will follow the FPL and will base separation on that.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bring back 'CATCUM' and 'STORCALE'.
Seriously though, would it not be possible for one of the flight-crew to contact ATC using a mobile telephone?
Is it time the aerodrome/ATC centre watch supervisor's contact number was added to charts and electronic-briefing packages?
It would need to be a recorded line, obviously.
Seriously though, would it not be possible for one of the flight-crew to contact ATC using a mobile telephone?
Is it time the aerodrome/ATC centre watch supervisor's contact number was added to charts and electronic-briefing packages?
It would need to be a recorded line, obviously.
Only half a speed-brake
UK AIP ENR 1.1.3.4.2.2.12
Essential information may be relayed by ATC using the ACARS/Data Link. Pilots may endeavour to use alternative methods for communicating with ATC such as HF. The Distress and Diversion Cell (D&D) serving the London FIR/UIR and the Scottish FIR/ UIR may be contacted by phone by aircraft that have approved installations that can access the UK telephone network. The telephone number is: London D&D Tel: 01489-612406
Essential information may be relayed by ATC using the ACARS/Data Link. Pilots may endeavour to use alternative methods for communicating with ATC such as HF. The Distress and Diversion Cell (D&D) serving the London FIR/UIR and the Scottish FIR/ UIR may be contacted by phone by aircraft that have approved installations that can access the UK telephone network. The telephone number is: London D&D Tel: 01489-612406
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farrel
I have never said or implied that the crew should descend at any point other than iaw the flight plan and ICAO procedure. If you think I have please quote it, in context. I quoted the basic ICAO procedure, and I got it correct. It seems you have become confused following the thread.
Oggers….put simply….you're wrong.
LookingForAJob is correct.
(TOPD is normally not in the ICAO FPL.)
LookingForAJob is correct.
(TOPD is normally not in the ICAO FPL.)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlightDetent
Okay. Conform to the flight plan levels until the appropriate fix or navaid serving the destination aerodrome, hold at that fix and commence descent at the flight plan ETA.
And, yes, that does mean the crew is stuck with the flight plan levels so they may as well file something that approximates the descent profile.
When to start the descent?
And, yes, that does mean the crew is stuck with the flight plan levels so they may as well file something that approximates the descent profile.