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ICAO Radio Failure Procedures

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ICAO Radio Failure Procedures

Old 3rd Apr 2017, 08:27
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ICAO Radio Failure Procedures

Can somebody please explain the descent segment of this procedure. The procedure states " Proceed according to the current flight plan route to the designated navigation aid or fix serving the destination aerodrome hold over this aid or fix until commencement of descent".

1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.

2. There are some airports where there are no designated navaid or fix. What is the procedure then?

Thanks

arrow
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 08:58
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1. Maintain your current level and then descend in the hold.

2. There will probably be an airport specific RFP in the AOI.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 12:58
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The procedure states " Proceed according to the current flight plan route to the designated navigation aid or fix serving the destination aerodrome hold over this aid or fix until commencement of descent"

1. If one is cruising at FL340 does it mean that altitude is maintained and descent commences over the designated nav aid or fix? OR does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan and holding is maintained at a point appropriate for the runway in use.
That is the IFR procedure. ICAO standard is to maintain last assigned level (or minimum safe altitude if higher) for 7 minutes (20 minutes in a non-radar area) and then as per flight plan. So you will descend as planned. Refer to ICAO Annex 2.

2. There are some airports where there are no designated navaid or fix. What is the procedure then?
If you filed IFR then there will either be a fix for an IFR procedure or the weather will be so good you can land in VMC as per the VFR radio failure procedure, ie you just maintain VMC and land at the airport (not forgetting to watch for light signals if there is a tower).
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 13:46
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...btw, the FAA lost comms procedure is different. In the USA you maintain the altitude ATC assigned or told you to expect for the entire leg you are on (or minimum IFR altitdue if higher). This difference with ICAO may have been a factor in the mid air collision over Brazil.

Last edited by oggers; 3rd Apr 2017 at 14:05.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 16:36
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LookingForAJob,

I would argue, also, that the procedures in annex 2 para 3.6.5.2.2 refer to following the flight plan route, rather than all elements of the flight plan.
ICAO Annex 2 para 3.6.5.2.2:
b) in airspace where radar is used in the provision of air
traffic control, maintain the last assigned speed and
level, or minimum flight altitude if higher, for a period
of 7 minutes following:
1) the time the last assigned level or minimum flight
altitude is reached; or
2) the time the transponder is set to Code 7600; or
3) the aircraft’s failure to report its position over a
compulsory reporting point;
whichever is later, and thereafter adjust level and speed
in accordance with the filed flight plan
;
oggers states that the aircraft should descend en-route 'as planned'. My view is that this is incorrect because the spirit of the current procedures is to permit ATC to keep other traffic out of the way of the radio-fail aircraft. ATC has no idea where the plog TOD is - something that some might say is evidenced by complaints about late and early descent - and so descending en-route limits the ability of ATC to predict the trajectory of the aircraft after it starts descent.
Nobody said anything about descending at the "plog TOD". When I wrote "as planned" it was in the context of the question "does it mean descent is commenced at the normal point in the Flight Plan".

Basically, after 7 minutes (or 20mins non-radar) at the assigned level (or minimum IFR altitude if higher) the crew will revert to the filed levels and descend iaw the flight plan. That has been the basic ICAO procedure since at least the early 90s.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 23:25
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your response could be a bit ambiguous because the pilot undoubtedly will have a plan for the descent profile but it may not be reflected in the FPL.
My response was to give the ICAO procedure. You will use the flight planned levels after the specified time (7 or 20mins). I have said nothing whatsoever about following a descent profile that was not in the flight plan.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 07:01
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hic Rodos, hic salta ...

FPL1:
-GCRR hhmm
- N458 F330 KORAL UN871 SONSO/N0456F340 UN871 OSDAM UB28 BARPA UM985 PIMOS UM445 BEGOX UN860 VLC UM985 LUMAS/N0454F320 UM985 EKSID/N0451F310 UM985 NOSTA/N0449F320 M985 GEN
- LIME 03:55 LIMC

FPL2:
- GCRR hhmm
- N0402 F120 TENDA
- GCFV 0020 GCRR

oggers? And because I like to wear my smart pants too, FPL = Filed Flight Plan message.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 07:51
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oggers?
Maybe if you actually ask a question FD I would provide an answer.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 07:58
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When to start the descent?

Last edited by FlightDetent; 4th Apr 2017 at 09:11. Reason: grammar / punctuation
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:04
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Radio fail procedures are a bit irrelevant now. Anything radio fails in the UK, the aircraft ends being escorted by a couple of RAF jets!!!!
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:13
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Now the difference between being aimed at or just followed could well be hidden in whether or not the A/C with RCF is following the laid-out procedures, innit?
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:40
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Oggers….put simply….you're wrong.

LookingForAJob is correct.

(TOPD is normally not in the ICAO FPL.)
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:44
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Lost Comms

My concern is the DESCENT component of the lost comms procedure. So just to clarify. If I lost my comms in the cruise lets say FL340. I will continue as per Flight Plan at FL 340 to the destination navaid if there was one and then descend from FL340 to an appropriate altitude at the appropriate time over the navaid and then position to fly an approach.

It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:49
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I believe that is the case. The point in the RCF procedures is being predictable.

And that's why I do not understand the option "or if in VMC proceed to land at suitable". How is that supposed to work, in class C airspace? Or any.

Also, oggers seems to be singing the same tune. The difference beteween Operator Flight Plan (OFP / PLOG) and ATC Filed Flight Plan (FPL) was a little lost at the beginning of the thread but no longer so. To my understanding there is no TOD in FPL ever, only a change of cruising level for the latter stages is the airspace structure and RADs (Route Availibility Document - Eurocontrol's airspace use guidlines) require so.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:51
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"It seems a bit ridiculous descending in a holding pattern from FL340 to an approach altitude and then positioning for the approach."

Why does it seem ridiculous?
ATC are presuming that you will follow the FPL and will base separation on that.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 09:57
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Bring back 'CATCUM' and 'STORCALE'.

Seriously though, would it not be possible for one of the flight-crew to contact ATC using a mobile telephone?
Is it time the aerodrome/ATC centre watch supervisor's contact number was added to charts and electronic-briefing packages?

It would need to be a recorded line, obviously.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 10:33
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UK AIP ENR 1.1.3.4.2.2.12

Essential information may be relayed by ATC using the ACARS/Data Link. Pilots may endeavour to use alternative methods for communicating with ATC such as HF. The Distress and Diversion Cell (D&D) serving the London FIR/UIR and the Scottish FIR/ UIR may be contacted by phone by aircraft that have approved installations that can access the UK telephone network. The telephone number is: London D&D Tel: 01489-612406
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 11:44
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Farrel

Oggers….put simply….you're wrong.

LookingForAJob is correct.

(TOPD is normally not in the ICAO FPL.)
I have never said or implied that the crew should descend at any point other than iaw the flight plan and ICAO procedure. If you think I have please quote it, in context. I quoted the basic ICAO procedure, and I got it correct. It seems you have become confused following the thread.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 14:14
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FlightDetent

When to start the descent?
Okay. Conform to the flight plan levels until the appropriate fix or navaid serving the destination aerodrome, hold at that fix and commence descent at the flight plan ETA.

And, yes, that does mean the crew is stuck with the flight plan levels so they may as well file something that approximates the descent profile.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 15:19
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Its a moot point nowadays, in most parts of the world you will be intercepted long before you reach the approach fix at cruising level.
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