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ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

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Old 25th Jan 2017, 10:52   #1 (permalink)
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Descend via STAR/climb via SID

Ref: http://www.icao.int/airnavigation/si...aflet.pdf'


Norway has implemented this, but we find it to be somewhat confusing. How is this handled in other countries and are pilots familiar with it? We still get questions by pilots and some seem to never have heard of it.
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Old 25th Jan 2017, 23:57   #2 (permalink)
 
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We´ve discussed this at work today

and everyone I talked to found that new regulation to be bs. I don´t think the new phraseology will be implemented without problems, I guess most people will ignore it. Since we´d have to tell every departure to follow the SID there´s rather going to be an amendment to the SID stating to follow all restrictions until explicitly told to disregard them.
Who the hell comes up with these regulations?
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 00:43   #3 (permalink)
 
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FAA is using it and very corrective to pilots reading back, "climb 4,000'" rather than "climb via the SID" where the SID says 4,000

GF
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 13:16   #4 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
How is this handled in other countries and are pilots familiar with it?
Haven't the UK and Australia (maybe others) deferred implementation of this crap?
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 13:19   #5 (permalink)
 
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The UK response;

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2016-12-15.pdf

Which links to this UK CAA Guidance

http://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-indu...R-phraseology/
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 13:34   #6 (permalink)
 
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"When you wish upon a star"........
eagleflyer, you can bet your bottom $ that whoever thinks this up, doesn't wear a headset........Either on the ground or in the air.
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Old 26th Jan 2017, 13:42   #7 (permalink)
 
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Something to get your head around.....

http://www.icao.int/airnavigation/si...arios%20v2.pdf
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 09:33   #8 (permalink)
 
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What could possibly go wrong.......?
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 03:18   #9 (permalink)
 
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Australia isn't ready yet. Recently notified an aspirational intention to implement 9 Nov 17.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...up/a17-h04.pdf
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 19:17   #10 (permalink)
 
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I was told somebody took "climb via SID" literally the other day and did just that! Does anybody have a clue of the whereabouts of SID?
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:25   #11 (permalink)
 
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NavCanada has an implementation date of Feb 27, 2017. I wouldn't be surprised if it is pushed back though.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 17:11   #12 (permalink)
 
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Make that April 27, 2017 implementation for NavCanada
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 20:48   #13 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by eagleflyer View Post
I was told somebody took "climb via SID" literally the other day and did just that! Does anybody have a clue of the whereabouts of SID?
Yup, I flew there recently Amílcar Cabral International Airport
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Old 4th May 2017, 15:52   #14 (permalink)
 
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New phraseology implemented last week for NAV Canada (Apr 27th)

It would be an understatement to say that (in YYZ at least) it has caused nothing but confusion and annoyance, and to most controllers and pilots, is completely redundant.
According to the AIC that came out before implementation...the way we were doing it before was "dangerous".

Not sure what else to say!! Not a good idea or implementation....so far!!
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Old 5th May 2017, 14:15   #15 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER View Post
eagleflyer, you can bet your bottom $ that whoever thinks this up, doesn't wear a headset........Either on the ground or in the air.
Absolutely. This new phraseology is so convoluted, and open to more misinterpretation than ever before. I particularly dislike the "fly direct XXXXX, expect YYYYY in 4 miles." I read that the reason for this is because some pilots were deleting the SID/STAR from the FMS and then having issues re-entering the points when recleared direct to one.

I'm not a pilot, so don't know fully how the FMS programming works, but surely it's not too difficult to make it SOP for a SID/STAR to be left in until the aircraft has passed the final point published?
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Old 5th May 2017, 16:18   #16 (permalink)
 
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It just deletes or skips the points between your current position and the direct point. The points of the procedure that follow the direct point will be untouched. So I'm not sure what the problem is. Seems like needless effort to remove all those remaining SID/STAR points, and, frankly, a stupid one, since you can't anticipate if you'll stay on the procedure after reaching the direct, or not. Poor practice.

Also, you can't keep the points you've already passed within the active route, as they're automatically deleted, too (except the most recent one or two). So, e.g., if you fly A->B->C, once you're at C, you can't input a direct to A or B any more. Where I'm from, ATC shouldn't give directs to past points, as it'd be a bit of a hassle to input them manually into the active route again.

Last edited by LFVA; 5th May 2017 at 16:30.
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Old 6th May 2017, 14:55   #17 (permalink)
 
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This gets really complicated depending on age of FMS, manufacturer of FMS and aircraft. Bore... When sent direct to a waypoint on a star, other points along with their constraints are lost. Some FMS have 'abeam points' function available with a direct - Selecting then allows the crew to re enter the constraint, but sometimes not enter a double constraint (ie. at waypoint X, be below FL200, above 15,000ft). Other aircraft do not have this function, so you have to build it from basics!

Anyhow, having been to Canada in the last few days, all I can see is the new phraseology has increased RT congestion!

Progress...

Last edited by Cough; 6th May 2017 at 15:08.
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:52   #18 (permalink)
 
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1111111111
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:55   #19 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cough View Post
This gets really complicated depending on age of FMS, manufacturer of FMS and aircraft. Bore... When sent direct to a waypoint on a star, other points along with their constraints are lost. Some FMS have 'abeam points' function available with a direct - Selecting then allows the crew to re enter the constraint, but sometimes not enter a double constraint (ie. at waypoint X, be below FL200, above 15,000ft). Other aircraft do not have this function, so you have to build it from basics!

Anyhow, having been to Canada in the last few days, all I can see is the new phraseology has increased RT congestion!

Progress...



^^^Just to confirm, when you're cleared direct to a waypoint down the SID/STAR, ATC are expecting you to disregard the restrictions at those points between your PPOS and direct to waypoint.
It's buried in the blurb of that NAV Canada document that was promulgated over the last few weeks.

It's a joke of an 'update' but probably just one of those things that'll bed in over the next few years as long as no incidents & accidents can be attributed to it!
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Old 19th May 2017, 03:41   #20 (permalink)
 
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SID/STAR phraseology cancelled today in YYZ...and in Canada from tomorrow onwards.

Too many variables and uncertainties to make it a success....in fact it was completely the opposite.
No gloating here.....just relieved to be using the "old" clearances again...that didn't cause even half the problems the new stuff did!!
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