What does ATC expect from pilots? Descend/Speed
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What does ATC expect from pilots? Descend/Speed
Hey all,
Sorry to double post, but I was directed here to get a more precise answer to my questions.
The original thread is active here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/58995...ml#post9651821
Here we go:
Can anyone point me in the right direction to find some more info on:
1) How much descend rate ATC expects usually? 1000ft/min minimum?!? Anything at all?
2) When ATC asks for speed reduction how fast do they want the reduction to happen. At what difference in speed do they expect the use of spoilers? Instead of just letting the plan decelerate.
I heard some answers to these questions in my career, but seems there is a lot of gossips, so I wanted to find it PANS OPS/ATM and other docs but wasnt successful.
Thanks
Chally
Sorry to double post, but I was directed here to get a more precise answer to my questions.
The original thread is active here:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/58995...ml#post9651821
Here we go:
Can anyone point me in the right direction to find some more info on:
1) How much descend rate ATC expects usually? 1000ft/min minimum?!? Anything at all?
2) When ATC asks for speed reduction how fast do they want the reduction to happen. At what difference in speed do they expect the use of spoilers? Instead of just letting the plan decelerate.
I heard some answers to these questions in my career, but seems there is a lot of gossips, so I wanted to find it PANS OPS/ATM and other docs but wasnt successful.
Thanks
Chally
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1) In the UK the minimum rate is 500ft a minute, in the climb or the descent. Technically, if you're going below that rate you should tell us. Realistically, I'd expect something around 1500ft per minute in the descent or climb, but that expectation varies according to aircraft type. In most London sectors you'll be given a level point in the descent so you can manage your own descent rate. If we want something impressive we'll ask you first.
2) 1kt per second is reasonable, regarding spoiler use that's the pilot's decision. I always train to never ask aircraft to go down and slow down, either tell them before they start their descent or expect them to be high if you've given a level restriction.
Regarding where to find these officially, I don't know sorry. This is a perspective from the shop floor
2) 1kt per second is reasonable, regarding spoiler use that's the pilot's decision. I always train to never ask aircraft to go down and slow down, either tell them before they start their descent or expect them to be high if you've given a level restriction.
Regarding where to find these officially, I don't know sorry. This is a perspective from the shop floor
Last edited by The Many Tentacles; 24th Jan 2017 at 14:14. Reason: speling :)
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In the UK, MATS Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 13 (page 189 of the link below) covers speed control. Can't find reference for rate of climb/descent.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...il%202015).pdf
UK military controllers don't do speed control but MOD policy on climb/descent rates is that a normal rate of climb/descent is not more than 8000ft/min, a restriction that can be lifted by the controller if required, but we are not worried about G&T being spilt by the SLF.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...il%202015).pdf
UK military controllers don't do speed control but MOD policy on climb/descent rates is that a normal rate of climb/descent is not more than 8000ft/min, a restriction that can be lifted by the controller if required, but we are not worried about G&T being spilt by the SLF.
Chally604
By suggesting you enquire here I was hoping you would receive a few more answers.
I left the Area ATC world in 1980, and the Approach Radar world when LHR's radar function moved to West Drayton in 1993, so way out of date!
No 2 son who is a Swanwick ATCO doesn't 'do' PPrune, but I'm seeing him on the weekend so will show him your query.
I left the Area ATC world in 1980, and the Approach Radar world when LHR's radar function moved to West Drayton in 1993, so way out of date!
No 2 son who is a Swanwick ATCO doesn't 'do' PPrune, but I'm seeing him on the weekend so will show him your query.
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From the UK AIP ENR 3.2.2.3
Maximum Rates of Climb and Descent
In order to ensure the credible interaction of Airborne Collision Avoidance Systems and ground based safety nets, other than aircraft in emergency and certain specific conditions for military aircraft (as detailed in Military AIP and MAA Regulatory Publication RA 3000 Series), all aircraft when operating under normal circumstances, when inside Controlled Airspace within the London and Scottish FIRs/UIRs should not operate with a climb or descent rate exceeding 8000 ft per minute. Aircraft when first approaching a cleared flight level and/or when changing flight level in Controlled Airspace should ensure that the vertical closure speed is not excessive. It is considered that, with about 1500 ft to go to a cleared level, vertical speed should be reduced to a maximum of 1500 ft per minute and ideally to between 1000 ft per minute and 500 ft per minute. Pilots should ensure that the aircraft neither undershoots nor overshoots the cleared level by more than 150 ft, manually overriding if necessary.
Minimum Rates of Climb and Descent
In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply with other operating requirements.
In order to ensure the credible interaction of Airborne Collision Avoidance Systems and ground based safety nets, other than aircraft in emergency and certain specific conditions for military aircraft (as detailed in Military AIP and MAA Regulatory Publication RA 3000 Series), all aircraft when operating under normal circumstances, when inside Controlled Airspace within the London and Scottish FIRs/UIRs should not operate with a climb or descent rate exceeding 8000 ft per minute. Aircraft when first approaching a cleared flight level and/or when changing flight level in Controlled Airspace should ensure that the vertical closure speed is not excessive. It is considered that, with about 1500 ft to go to a cleared level, vertical speed should be reduced to a maximum of 1500 ft per minute and ideally to between 1000 ft per minute and 500 ft per minute. Pilots should ensure that the aircraft neither undershoots nor overshoots the cleared level by more than 150 ft, manually overriding if necessary.
Minimum Rates of Climb and Descent
In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply with other operating requirements.
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I believe the minimum climb and descent rates of 500ft/min are in the UK AIP.
If given a descent or climb with a level by instruction, this removes the minimum climb and descent rate as you can plan whatever rate you like as long as you meet the clearance given. If you cannot,i would expect the pilot to tell ATC.
Hope that helps
If given a descent or climb with a level by instruction, this removes the minimum climb and descent rate as you can plan whatever rate you like as long as you meet the clearance given. If you cannot,i would expect the pilot to tell ATC.
Hope that helps
