ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
OK - we've had publicity recently about LCOs putting 'pressure' on ATCOs to cut routings etc....
I'm an easy going guy, don't like paperwork, do my best to expedite things along, but if I give a specific clearance, it's usually for a damned good reason. Yesterday there was such a reason. Busy elsewhere on the sector (200miles away at STN and 50 miles away at IOM) and answering plenty of landcalls, when MYT913 needs clearance out of EGAA heading for LEAL. Asks for DCT DUB VOR, but as I have conflicting slow overflight, and to make life easier for EIDW ATC, I give BEL-MULLA-DUB to stay in CAS and parallel off on slow tfc. (adds an extra 7 miles AND stays INSIDE CAS)
EGAA (under pressure from MYT) ask (again) for direct routing, no says I, route via MULLA.
ac gets airborne and EGAA advises he is on 'direct' heading (co-incidentally toward DUB VOR) for Wx avoidance - yeah right.
My point, I don't expect a) to have to deal with a rqst 3 times (when I have other things to do) b)ac to effectively refuse to comply with ATC clearance c)lies - following ac reported no weather and good VMC FL100+
Strikes me as unprofessional and behaviour more becoming of a spoilt child. Is this commercial pressure to save fuel, or laziness to avoid entering waypoints?
Also, I would have been quite within rights to terminate service leaving CAS and instruct to remain clear of Dublins airspace, until further clearance. I didn't cos' I ain't pedantic like that, but my patience was tested. And is it company policy to route outside CAS in the open FIR ?
Last edited by Aunt Rimmer; 30th Jun 2002 at 02:55.
Can't comment on what drove these two (assuming it was two of them making the decision) but the box of tricks could of told them the difference in fuel / time of their request vs your clearance so to quibble over 7 miles makes me think something else was going on. Quite what I think will remin un-answered until one of them pops into this forum. Other traffic at EGAA or previous bad clearances??
Hi Scotland..ok you are busy "over 200 miles away at STN and 50 miles away at IOM " What about calling for help? or splitting into Belfast and west? The MYT may not appreciate how busy you are but could a clearance of 1000 below the conflicting traffic(inside or outside CAS? you don't clarify) not have been given to the Egaa controller and let him/her chuck the aircraft direct to Dublin?.The Aldergrove radar is pretty good down there and we often offer a radar advisory service.We often, in fact, practically ALWAYS have inbound aircraft routed "direct "Bel with little or no co ordination from the south so we are well used to aircraft expecting a more direct route outbound.Just as a further point I was not involved nor was I condoning any hassle you experienced but just commenting from personal experience
As we both probably know who Cpt of said MYT probably was, I'm with Scottish on this one! He gets a superb service outta both us and them 99.9% of the time but at this time of the year it takes very little to throw him over the edge, though its usually with me!!
Flexability is the name of the game here but sometimes circumstances do not permit every direct routing. The bigger picture is not always available cause contrary to popular belief, TCAS only works when everyone has serviceable transponders!
Don't forget, TCAS also is designed to not display all aircraft in the area. If you are a threat, yes is "should" show you. However, if the avionics does not percieve you as a threat, chances are good that it will not display the target...
cf ...disagree with you here ..I know who was involved (flying) and on the ground .A lot of heat and light I think...but I am sure that it could have been handled in a way which was beneficial to the customer.After all WE have a pretty good idea what is happening down in the nether regions of the FIR and if thats the way they want to go ..so be it ...If 7 miles is multiplied out over the length of a season times number of rotations of ALL MYT aircraft then the savings in fuel MAY be significant.That is why we are taught to be EXPEDITIOUS and customer facing after all .I still think that the Scots(if the sector is not split) are taking on too much if the area of responsibility runs from Stornaway to IOM ...and I think I know which is the busiest bit of that lot!! I am actually on the side of MYT .....must have a lie down in a dark room ..... What about an airway BFS DUB?? LIKE WE PROPOSED YEARS AGO!!!
I'm amazed Crotalus at your perspective..... customer facing is not about giving direct routes, or particularly trying to satisfy one crew; it's about 'servicing' as many aircraft as possible, surely?
And I say this as a Maastricht controller, where we generally use direct routes (providing there are no active military areas, EVERY flight gets a direct route normally from outside our border to the last point agreed with the next unit). But the idea that we should strive to give directs to satisfy individual flights is now an anachronism.
I'm totally with Scottish; making life easier for the next sector (thus reducing their workload and increasing their potential capacity) is true customer facing.
Scrotalus - 200 miles is nothing with 2 radar displays, the distance is irrelevant. What is relevant is an ac that is basically refusing to accept a valid ATC clearance. And, No, I don't think I know you or you me, so I don't think you can comment on the validity of ops at ScACC. I on the other hand have worked ADC/ APC and ACC, and reckon I have a pretty well grounded understanding of all aspects of out benighted profession that includes ops@AA
MYT did not know if I was single-manned or double-manned, it is only my frankness that gave you that info. If we had been double manned and at max capacity he would still have taken the path of maximum arrogance - so I reject your argument.
The point is, he refused to accept an ATC clearance, he has appeared to have then told porkies about the Wx (I spoke to following outbounds who said it was fine and good VMC above FL100 ie. no CBs about - and what else do folk Wx avoid?) and he pestered. He is lucky that he was not told to remain outside CAS. He put unnecessary pressure on in a cheap manner. In fact he is lucky not be dealing with a 1261 for arrogance/deceit and you can tell him that. Personally I intend to visit AA (again) on a social, and would be delighted to meet said professional pilot. You can tell him that too, and he knows me a pint for being so restrained.
Next time I will not be so easy going and will be calling the MYT chief pilot.
BTW Ever been to the centre for a looksee? I would recommend it for your further education.
Last edited by Aunt Rimmer; 3rd Jul 2002 at 21:49.
aunty ..calm down ......I agree that you should not be hassled .I don't think you can use the argument "He lied"(you may say that I couldn't possibly comment) about the weather ..strong words ..he was there you were up to 200 miles away looking out for sheep at Barra .You never did say if your conflicting traffic was inside or outside CAS.Would direct DUB have solved that ?And if we had a decent airway or even advisory route to the fir boundary might that have helped?.As to the guy flying I am fairly certain I know who it is ...and he is well known for trying to squeeze every little concession out of ATC. Surely a little bit flexibility would have solved it .Letting Aldergrove(remarkably sheep free) do a little bit extra might have helped no? I look forward to your social visit..you rich atco twos can buy the beer while we poor atco threes can drink it . OH and as for visiting Egpx ...I did that on a regular basis 6 on 4 off from 1978 until 1986 .....does that count??
Scrot - And what have you got against our woolly cousins@Barra
The conflict would have been inside CAS. No an advisory route wouldn't make a bit of difference cos' no-one recognises them anyway, and you then have to provide a RAS which makes it even more onerous - fortunately you don't get too many 4 ship F3s hammering round the sceptic isle.
I agree that your radar cover is better, problem is you don't have a direct line to Dublin which can make it tricky to let them know of last minute heading changes, and for some reason we can't get your radar piped in, which would be a big help all round.
It is wonderfully easy to sit and pontificate after the event, ergo
"what about making life easy for the BUSIEST piece of airspace in the area ...should he have been doing things quite so far away ? "
FYI The West Coast sector runs from Stornoway right down to the bdry at NEVRI, so in fact depending on freq splits etc that might be the only sector he would have spoken to if he had routed direct. And contrary to popular belief, BEL zone is not always the busiest place around the sectors. As I said earlier, DUB was a damn sight busier and I was trying to give our esteemed MYT guaranteed continuous climb above the 180 crosser and the DUB stack In these circumstances an extra 7 miles can be quite important to get ac above the stack and on a more tactical heading, especially as heavily laden holiday flights can be notoriously bad climbers.
We bend over backwards to give direct routings etc..when we can, but there are times when plan B comes into force. I would have thought you'd realise that. All I would ask you to consider is what do you think ATC at EGLL, or KORD would have said if an ac had taken that attitude ? I think I know. I think we at ScACC deserve the same professional attitude.
Given the publicity recently about LCOs routing outside CAS (were the passengers aware? ) - and potential of aircraft ignoring ATC instructions, do you think pushyness is an appropriate manner ?
I do not believe that you are an ATCO 3 at EGAA,I think you are an unscrupulous person using the forum to elicit certain reactions. You give the impression of being an ATCO with statements such as 'We often offer a RAS etc. ' and 'We often have inbound aircraft etc,' but you shot yourself in the foot giving details of visiting? ScACC between 1978-1986. This last piece of information does not apply to any operational atco currently working at the unit.
CROTALUS is indeed an ATCO 3 at EGAA, but he is indeed a very unscrupulous person!!!! Sorry CROTALUS I've had the pleasure of working for him for the past 5 years
You say that you were working 2 sectors. Presumably with 2 frequencies X coupled. You also say '200 NM with 2 displays' is OK. Take a look at the initial findings from the recent mid-air. Ring any bells? I would have thought that a direct routing to DUB would have helped you out against a slow climber through GELKI. Anyway, where was the other ATCO 2, on his way home?
As for MYT913, he's know as 'The world greatest living pilot' at EGAA and he always takes the f-ing ****.
Last edited by surface wind; 5th Jul 2002 at 21:41.
with alacrity .....Sorry but Surface Wind is TOTALLY correct !! debate finished I reckon...Aunt ..you and I agree about professionalism/respect we can debate the finer points of cross border co-operation over a beer or three in the Crown YOU ARE BUYING now where did I leave that Atlantic House /Redbrae (and Gailes radar)!! pass??
Crotalus - you really are something else. So you have been taught to be EXPEDITIOUS and customer facing, I think you should enquire about getting a refund. Whats the story behind all the duffy 3 grand clearances in a sometimes deserted tma, levelling the jet drivers off at a low level and then promptly climbing them to FL90. At least the majority of your colleagues including the participants to this thread give the best level they have available. It reminds me of a saying about taking the tree out of your own eye before commenting on the twig in someone elses or something like that