Landing a/c minima sep
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Landing a/c minima sep
I'm sure that some of you have heard about the near miss that occurred at Dublin last March that's currently doing the rounds on the various anti-social media platforms.
One Ryanair aircraft was on approach, with one lining up. Now, Dublin is notorious for these late clearences at peak-times due to congestion, but blocked and misunderstood radio transmissions played a part.
Aerodrome isn't my "forte". I wanted to clarify this, as a controller in Dublin told me that they weren't 101% either. If an aircraft is lined up, what is the minimum distance that the landing aircraft (DME) can be from the runway before an abort and go-around are issued to two aircraft.
Is there any minima for it? Or are they separated as long as the departure leaves the runway before the arrival touches down?
Thanks in advance,
Eamonn.
One Ryanair aircraft was on approach, with one lining up. Now, Dublin is notorious for these late clearences at peak-times due to congestion, but blocked and misunderstood radio transmissions played a part.
Aerodrome isn't my "forte". I wanted to clarify this, as a controller in Dublin told me that they weren't 101% either. If an aircraft is lined up, what is the minimum distance that the landing aircraft (DME) can be from the runway before an abort and go-around are issued to two aircraft.
Is there any minima for it? Or are they separated as long as the departure leaves the runway before the arrival touches down?
Thanks in advance,
Eamonn.
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That's what I was thinking, but there might be different regulations for Ireland. I thought that wheels-up was fine, but the two aircraft involved in the incident were 800m apart, so neither were on the runway at the same time, he would've rotated prior to the company touching down, yet it was considered a loss of separation.
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In the UK,
From CAP493
Unless specific procedures have been approved by the CAA, a landing aircraft shall not be permitted to cross the beginning of the runway on its final approach until a preceding aircraft, departing from the same runway, is airborne.
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ICAO Runway sep
DOC 4444
7.10.1 Separation of landing aircraft and preceding landing and
departing aircraft using the same runway
Except as provided in 7.11 [Reduced runway sep] and Chapter 5, Section 5.8 [Wake sep], a landing aircraft will not normally be permitted to cross the runway threshold on its final approach until the preceding departing aircraft has crossed the end of the runway-in-use, or has started a turn, or until all preceding landing aircraft are clear of the runway-in-use.
- - - -
Then - as needs must - each country adjusts according to their needs and safety cases.......Then Humans apply this..
7.10.1 Separation of landing aircraft and preceding landing and
departing aircraft using the same runway
Except as provided in 7.11 [Reduced runway sep] and Chapter 5, Section 5.8 [Wake sep], a landing aircraft will not normally be permitted to cross the runway threshold on its final approach until the preceding departing aircraft has crossed the end of the runway-in-use, or has started a turn, or until all preceding landing aircraft are clear of the runway-in-use.
- - - -
Then - as needs must - each country adjusts according to their needs and safety cases.......Then Humans apply this..
Last edited by sheepless; 28th Dec 2015 at 21:26.
To the OP I have a question.
From a previous post by you its intimated that you are based in Shannon.
There is at least 20 current or former Tower ATCO's in Ballycasey not to mention Shannon Tower itself just a phone call away.
So why post a query on the internet when you can simply ask one of your colleagues?
From a previous post by you its intimated that you are based in Shannon.
There is at least 20 current or former Tower ATCO's in Ballycasey not to mention Shannon Tower itself just a phone call away.
So why post a query on the internet when you can simply ask one of your colleagues?
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"Reduced separation in the vicinity of the airfield" is always a good get out!
Two DC8s northbound between POL and DCS, on top of one another at 330 and 350. The lower one (Air Canada) asks if 370 is available, 'D' man says 'he can have it if you can get him there'.
Ask the Air Canada if he has the Swissair above him in sight - yes.
Ask Swissair any objection if the Air Canada below you does a visual climbthrough; 'will he be in front or behind' is the reply.
Air Canada says 'I'll come up on your right'
I say 'clear visual climb to FL370'.
There was about a mile between them.
Last edited by chevvron; 29th Dec 2015 at 12:21.
Sounds like the good old days when experience, common sense and a judicious application of the rules took precedence over the paper tigers who could only tell you it was the wrong decision when they had had a week to think about it!!
[We also had more fun and less paperwork!!]
[We also had more fun and less paperwork!!]
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Shannon ACC, I would expect the answer to be in DOC4444 (as Sheepless has kindly pointed out) or in the IAA Dublin ATC Twr MATS.
If you are an IAA employee in Shannon would you have access to the Dublin Twr MATS ?
A little surprised you came up on PPRUNE looking for such info ?
If you are an IAA employee in Shannon would you have access to the Dublin Twr MATS ?
A little surprised you came up on PPRUNE looking for such info ?
Sounds like the good old days when experience, common sense and a judicious application of the rules took precedence over the paper tigers who could only tell you it was the wrong decision when they had had a week to think about it!!
[We also had more fun and less paperwork!!]
[We also had more fun and less paperwork!!]
Just think of the piccies you could get in that situation.
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At London ATCC we used to do VMC climbs and descents in Rule 21/22 airspace (whichever it was that particular week…). It seemed like a good idea at the time between consenting adults! Then along came SOPs, Compliance, LCEs, and jobsworths, which spoilt all the fun...