NATS Lose Gatwick Contract (Split thread)
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Can anyone show me where it states NATS, lost the contract because of ATCO wages. As i understand it it was the overall cost, could that include adding pension costs? head office staff? could that be the reason?
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NATS Lose Gatwick Contract (Split thread)
We've only been told that the decision was based on overall cost.
What would happen if all Gatwick OJTIs refused to train and examine?
What would happen if all Gatwick OJTIs refused to train and examine?
Squawk 7500
If such a refusal occurred, next NSL contract to go would be Edinburgh (which the Gatwick owners have a controlling interest?). CAA is not about to allow Gatwick to shutdown due to a lack of ATCOs with LUE, Green Field LUE will be issued following simulator training (all flight procedures in the public domain, via the UK AIP) and airport operator has copies of MATS 2.
NSL already in the handover mode at Brum, cannot imagine they would let the news media view them as prejudicing safety by refusing to facilitate a seamless transition at Gatwick. After Gatwick they should have the process perfected!
If such a refusal occurred, next NSL contract to go would be Edinburgh (which the Gatwick owners have a controlling interest?). CAA is not about to allow Gatwick to shutdown due to a lack of ATCOs with LUE, Green Field LUE will be issued following simulator training (all flight procedures in the public domain, via the UK AIP) and airport operator has copies of MATS 2.
NSL already in the handover mode at Brum, cannot imagine they would let the news media view them as prejudicing safety by refusing to facilitate a seamless transition at Gatwick. After Gatwick they should have the process perfected!
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TCAS FAN. I assume that you are not an aviation professional. It takes much, much more to train controllers than just a bit of simulator training, a copy of MATS II and then a green field stamp on their ticket. At the busiest units even experienced controllers can take many months to validate, i.e. to be able to work solo. Gatwick is a complex operation and the controllers are a highly skilled group which could not be replaced overnight.
Heathrow Director
I believe that 46 years in the ATM business does qualify me for professional status. If, but only if, some form of non-cooperation with training and or UE examining was forthcoming, technology and Green Field ULEs could be used to mitigate the issue. Simulation is a practical resolution of the problem, but is achievable Ever heard of aircrew type rating zero time simulation?
I know its possible I've done similar many years ago when the SERCO predecessor tried to pull the same non training stunt, fortunately the British Ambassador and government intervention resulted in a few days (yes days!) live training before we took over. Within minutes of taking over watch my first call was "MAYDAY, MAYDAY......" Simulator training paid off and all ended well.
Do not imagine that we will ever see "NATS refuse to train new Gatwick Air Traffic Controllers" in the tabloid headlines. As I said previously, they will have perfected the transition process by the time that Gatwick is handed over. Could even form a transition team, where will it move onto next Aberporth, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Manchester.......?
I believe that 46 years in the ATM business does qualify me for professional status. If, but only if, some form of non-cooperation with training and or UE examining was forthcoming, technology and Green Field ULEs could be used to mitigate the issue. Simulation is a practical resolution of the problem, but is achievable Ever heard of aircrew type rating zero time simulation?
I know its possible I've done similar many years ago when the SERCO predecessor tried to pull the same non training stunt, fortunately the British Ambassador and government intervention resulted in a few days (yes days!) live training before we took over. Within minutes of taking over watch my first call was "MAYDAY, MAYDAY......" Simulator training paid off and all ended well.
Do not imagine that we will ever see "NATS refuse to train new Gatwick Air Traffic Controllers" in the tabloid headlines. As I said previously, they will have perfected the transition process by the time that Gatwick is handed over. Could even form a transition team, where will it move onto next Aberporth, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Manchester.......?
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NATS Lose Gatwick Contract (Split thread)
Agree with HD. If the CAA handed out green field tickets for busy aerodromes like Gatwick, it makes a complete mockery of our lengthy training and validation process.
Squawk 7500
Although unlikely it is achievable if the new ANSP demonstrates to SARG that the new staff are competent following simulator training.
Your speculation that NATS will refuse training/examination is not going to happen if they wish to maintain their business credibility. The Brum process of seconding new ANSP staff to NATS for training and UE will no doubt have to be invoked for insurance purposes.
The way things are going is DFS going to simplify future transition arrangements by buying NSL?
Although unlikely it is achievable if the new ANSP demonstrates to SARG that the new staff are competent following simulator training.
Your speculation that NATS will refuse training/examination is not going to happen if they wish to maintain their business credibility. The Brum process of seconding new ANSP staff to NATS for training and UE will no doubt have to be invoked for insurance purposes.
The way things are going is DFS going to simplify future transition arrangements by buying NSL?
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TCAS FAN
Does that also include any actual ATC operational time or are you just an office wallah driving the 'Brown Bomber'?
If DFS takes over on a Greenfield site basis I foresee a long period of flow control until the operation is deemed to be safe.
Interesting times in which we live.
P.s. As an addendum your Moniker TCAS Fan, is that because you need to use/rely on TCAS to solve basic foreseeable ATC incidents rather than use your nous?.
46 years in the ATM business does qualify me for professional status
If DFS takes over on a Greenfield site basis I foresee a long period of flow control until the operation is deemed to be safe.
Interesting times in which we live.
P.s. As an addendum your Moniker TCAS Fan, is that because you need to use/rely on TCAS to solve basic foreseeable ATC incidents rather than use your nous?.
Vercingetorix
Licensed ATCO on my 21st birthday, ADV/ADI/APP/APS/Area and still with a current validation to provide ATS, all the deskwork ever needed to run ATS Units and sell on my experience to help other ANSP attain EU ANSP Cerification . Enough to drop the "professional" issue and get back on Thread?
Licensed ATCO on my 21st birthday, ADV/ADI/APP/APS/Area and still with a current validation to provide ATS, all the deskwork ever needed to run ATS Units and sell on my experience to help other ANSP attain EU ANSP Cerification . Enough to drop the "professional" issue and get back on Thread?
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That has already happened at AENA. They will force the ATCOs to train the new controllers one way or another. The government will back the new ANSP and things will get pretty bad.
They might even send the army to Gatwick like they did with AENA. That was all a show! The former transport minister, that idiot called José Blanco, even said that all the Spanish airspace could be controlled by military controllers replacing us at once, hahahaa.. that was a pretty good joke until it proved wrong.
Maybe the best way is negotiating better terms for all the controllers, as long as they stand together. That's feasible and realistic.
They might even send the army to Gatwick like they did with AENA. That was all a show! The former transport minister, that idiot called José Blanco, even said that all the Spanish airspace could be controlled by military controllers replacing us at once, hahahaa.. that was a pretty good joke until it proved wrong.
Maybe the best way is negotiating better terms for all the controllers, as long as they stand together. That's feasible and realistic.
What's all this about NATS Management being 'civil service' minded? NATS hasn't been part of the civil service since 1975 and before I retired nearly 6 years ago, they were bringing in senior management from outside industries who had little or no knowledge of how aviation works, the now ex C/Ex Paul Barron being one.
Well despite TCAS FAN's apparent ATC experience, he obviously doesn't realise the NATS controllers at Aberporth are APS only carrying out an MOD (DPA) operation (range control), the airport being AFIS not ATC.
Personally I only fly non-transponder aircraft and look forward to filing an airprox on someone responding to an RA without looking out of the cockpit.
Personally I only fly non-transponder aircraft and look forward to filing an airprox on someone responding to an RA without looking out of the cockpit.
Vercingetorix
Something you've probably heard many times before, something along the lines of "if you cannot validate you can always instruct, if you cannot instruct, you can manage". Fortunately I, as I suspect you may also, manged to do all three simultaneously up to retirement, only to be tempted back when I got bored.
Chevvron
Know Aberporth is APS (of a sort) but a NSL contract ripe for plucking, maybe by another MOD savy ANSP (who I believe you know) who could do it considerably cheaper, time for a close shave?
Something you've probably heard many times before, something along the lines of "if you cannot validate you can always instruct, if you cannot instruct, you can manage". Fortunately I, as I suspect you may also, manged to do all three simultaneously up to retirement, only to be tempted back when I got bored.
Chevvron
Know Aberporth is APS (of a sort) but a NSL contract ripe for plucking, maybe by another MOD savy ANSP (who I believe you know) who could do it considerably cheaper, time for a close shave?
TCAS FAN: I know there is already another (UK based) ANSP bidding for Aberporth Range (they told me back in March).
I was tempted to make a comeback by this same ANSP, especially with the salary offered, but I preferred to do the odd day as a FISO instead of full time ATC - I lasted all of 2 weeks after I retired before I started FISO training!
I was tempted to make a comeback by this same ANSP, especially with the salary offered, but I preferred to do the odd day as a FISO instead of full time ATC - I lasted all of 2 weeks after I retired before I started FISO training!
Last edited by chevvron; 22nd Jul 2014 at 18:34.
Heathrow Director
Not insane, would never have got through the validation or the medical, personal choice, makes much more sense to me to keep the old grey matter going, with the advantage of paying for the next cruise or long haul holiday, before I get too aged or infirm to enjoy them.
Lets get back to the thread, or start a new one "1001 things that you wanted to know about TCAS FAN".
How about the staff at Gatwick "to be TUPEd or not to be TUPEd, that is the question?". Will NSL have a job for them if the latter is chosen?
Not insane, would never have got through the validation or the medical, personal choice, makes much more sense to me to keep the old grey matter going, with the advantage of paying for the next cruise or long haul holiday, before I get too aged or infirm to enjoy them.
Lets get back to the thread, or start a new one "1001 things that you wanted to know about TCAS FAN".
How about the staff at Gatwick "to be TUPEd or not to be TUPEd, that is the question?". Will NSL have a job for them if the latter is chosen?
Have to agree about keeping the grey matter going, that's why I FISO.
Plenty of people 'retiring'* at other NSL units so there should be vacancies.
*They may even be offered 'inducements' to retire early if they're at the top of the salary scale; I know of one who went this way, said he was made 'an offer he couldn't refuse'.
My old unit seems to be constantly short of staff, always having to bandbox positions.
Plenty of people 'retiring'* at other NSL units so there should be vacancies.
*They may even be offered 'inducements' to retire early if they're at the top of the salary scale; I know of one who went this way, said he was made 'an offer he couldn't refuse'.
My old unit seems to be constantly short of staff, always having to bandbox positions.