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ATC post potential Scottish Independence

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ATC post potential Scottish Independence

Old 16th Apr 2014, 11:19
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ATC post potential Scottish Independence

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere on these forums, however planning a trip up to the Highlands & Islands later in the year and wondered how ATC would be covered in the event that the SNP is successful and a YES vote is returned.

Whilst having Scottish forebears, but not wishing to get political, if Scotland is to become an independent nation, why on earth should NATS and what remains of the U.K. continue to provide any service north of the border? It would be a bit like Swanwick handing over control to others across La Manche

Is this just another element of an independent Scotland that Messrs Salmond and Co. think will just be maintained under the status quo?
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 12:39
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Why not ?
NATS could continue to do it - I don't see why not - or another operator take it over.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 14:57
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It would be a bit like Swanwick handing over control to others across La Manche
Or like the FAB that operates to the west and North West ? If they go I am sure there will be a commercial arrangement floated.

ATC is all about profit after all.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 15:35
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'twould be interesting to see how the operation would be regulated and licensed, though. Presumably a Scottish CAA and SRG etc. Expensive!
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 15:41
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Good point, Loki.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 16:28
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GK430 don't tempt fate, it might not be too far off when Swanwick airspace is provided from across La Manche, decreed by Brussels and not much the UK can do about it, if we're still in the E.E.C Got the makings of a good thread methinks, all been a bit boring lately on this forum.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 17:28
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Don't forget 'Delegated Airspace'.
At the moment, a substantial chunk of the London FIR, (Swanwick's airspace), is delegated to EGPX. This is basically the area controlled by the former area control centre at Manchester. The Manchester sub-centre was originally planned to re-locate to Swanwick, but due to NATS budget considerations, and the plan to boost the Ayrshire economy, eventually moved to Scotland.
This airspace is the West 2 Local Area Group, and is the reason aircraft departing from EGCC are transferred to 'Scottish Control' on departure, and inbounds from the south call Scottish, prior to transfer to Manchester Approach Radar.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 17:48
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At the moment, a substantial chunk of the London FIR, (Swanwick's airspace), is delegated to EGPX.
Oh, come on! It's not Swanwick's airspace, it's UK airspace (to the extent that it can be called that over international waters). And of that, Swanwick and Scottish are nominated to provide services in only a moderate volume of that airspace.

The original question is an interesting thought exercise that should be done. It's rather like the 'privatisation' of NATS, something that was pushed through by politicians and then left to the industry people to sort out the details. And some of those details are still being sorted out today or are a fudge that everyone can live with.

However, the UK is fortunate in that it has much experience of multiple air navigation service providers working within its airspace, something that has resulted in the UK having a very good regulatory framework for ATS. You may not agree, but try working in an environment where there is a monopoly service provider and regulation is done by the old boy's network and a handshake over coffee/dinner and no-one else knows what was agreed and you might start to value the good bits of the CAA.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 19:16
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Thanks for responses.
I think there are a multitude of issues.

UK NATS could continue to provide the service, but tell me, what will it cost the Scots? There are some harsh realities if they go there own way. They will have their own taxation system......ours is bad enough without us footing the bill to keep them living the way they have been used to.
(Okay, I know about the creation of oil wealth).

Regulatory costs indeed. Where will ATCO's / Pilots et al be licensed and you might say EASA and all's well, but I know who I just paid for my latest licence and how it was all done online through OUR CAA.

As for commenting on covering the airspace, yes, it is UK at the moment, however The SNP no longer wish to be a part, so while we shall retain UK airspace, what shall we call that north of Hadrian's Wall?

Where is the radar sited that covers the airspace in question? Clee Hill certainly hasn't got that kind of range, so excuse my lack of knowledge on this front.

I presume the RAF will no longer be welcome to cross into the new airspace unless the whole military/defence issues are adequately resolved.

On a personal note, I hope my relatives are still of the 'No persuasion'!
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 20:02
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what will it cost the Scots?
It shouldn't cost them anything at all unless they fly somewhere. Air Traffic in the UK is funded by route charges not taxation and makes a net contribution to the Government coffers. There is no reason why it shouldn't continue just the same.
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 20:27
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Speculation:

Over the next few years (and before independence happens) NATS closes Prestwick Centre and relocates it to Swanwick. "One centre" "operational efficiencies" etc...

At independence:

NATS: "of course we can continue to provide ATC services in the Scottish FIR. We have the infrastructure, experience and a proven track record. Just write us a blank cheque Mr Salmond."
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Old 16th Apr 2014, 20:47
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BigDaddy,
if NATS re-located all the the EGPX ATCOs to Swanwick, they would have to shell out a fortune paying them all Band 5 wack.
If I was Deakin, I'd be looking at moving all the Band 5 folk north. Loads of space, helping an impoverished region, AND, a reduction in salaries, (Band5-4), to boot. All in line with the SESAR ANSP cost-reduction programme, - "Tuned in to our customers".
You know it makes sense.
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 09:55
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And since when did "Sense" have anything to do with decisions made by NATS?

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Old 17th Apr 2014, 13:23
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decreed by Brussels and not much the UK can do about it, if we're still in the E.E.C
Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Possibly Eurocontrol might be involved, but, having refused to delegate airspace in the past, despite an agreement, there's no reason this would ever happen in the future.
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 13:47
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Similarly, IF the present Government do conduct a poll on membership of EU for the possibly remaining parts, or indeed the whole of the UK, and IF that received a 'better off out' vote, and IF the government then actually did leave the EU, where would that leave everyone? No more eurocontrol setting pricing units presumably?
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Old 17th Apr 2014, 15:49
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No more eurocontrol setting pricing units presumably?
Eurocontrol don't set the rates. That's decided by the individual state.
Not a requirement to be a EU member to be a member of Eurocontrol either. However if Engerland PC decided to pull-out RUC would probably increase as they'd have to set up their own collecting agency
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